what is love

[Nacht]

PO Nacht (1:53:29 AM): here is what i have found to be true about love, and this is the listen to me and take it to heart part of the evening::
PO Nacht (1:53:48 AM): ppl ask the question, how do you know you are in love
PO Nacht (1:54:28 AM): love is something that is unconditional. if you can only worry and worry about whether they love you back, then it is a crush/infatuation....
PO Nacht (1:55:56 AM): real love is a feeling that says to you, yah know, i love them so much; with all my heart; it is not important whether or not they love me back; what is important is what i am feeling right now and how good that makes me feel; i just want them to be happy, even if that means that i am not the one who makes them so
PO Nacht (1:56:12 AM): sometimes, someone is your type, but you are not theirs
PO Nacht (1:56:50 AM): the sheer feeling of euphoria that comes with loving someone is so good, that just having felt is a reward in and of itself
PO Nacht (1:57:00 AM): i think that explains it

[Sperrit]

An interesting idea, beautiful. I'm guessing you're talking about romantic love? In that case there really isn't a whole lot I can say. Being a romantic my tendency is to believe that love conquers all, that it's power is neigh limitless. Of course, I also believe that every human being pocesses the potential to be anything they want to be and to do anything they want to do. However, these are simple ideas that produce complex reactions. If love is so powerful then shouldn't the feeling of love, the experience of love, be something dramatic and full and soul-exploding?
In my opinion, no.
I am of the belief that, often, the most wonderful, powerful types of love (romantic love, now) are those that are subtle and quiet. This is the love found in the simplicity of another's company, the joy inspired by the desire to know that person to the extent that even their flaws are fascinating. This is the love of holding someone in your arms while they are asleep, marvelling at their wonderous nature. Perhaps these ideas seem large and powerful to you. I believe they are. But their manifestations are small and subtle, things that can only be picked up by one with the eyes to see the smaller details. This is not the fairy tale love where the prince runs by with his white horse and picks up the fair maiden to live happily ever after. This is the love of the every day simplicity and knowing the joy of that simplicity. This is the love of knowing someone to depths that no other person shall know, and realizing that you could spend a lifetime trying to unravel that person and never know it all. This is not blind passion, it is the seeing, gentle desire that stirs within all of us: the need to be with someone, someone that you can dedicate yourself to, someone who inspires confidence and trust in you to a depth that you did not even know yourself. It is a subtle love, and a scary one. It means commiting yourself to something so fully that you shall be open to every assualt, every blow. It is trusting so completely and so simply that any betrayal would be as death. That is love as I see it. That is love as I wish to someday find, knowing all along that my chances of finding it and being able to hold onto it are slimmer than a piece of paper. But I shall not give up, and neither should you. For, indeed, if you find it, you must fight for it with such terrible strength and effort that it would kill you, for indeed it would be death to have lost it when it would be in your grasp.
That is love as I know it now. Perhaps one day my mind shall change. But, for now, that is the best answer I can give.

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[emmy]

wow.......that's about all i can say to this.....it just makes you think....-sigh-

[Nacht]

well i think i was actually trying to explain the love in a sense of the possibility of being unrequited. if someone doesnt love you back, or if you DO love eachother, and for some reason it just doesnt work out, these are the feelings that would be felt if it was real.

now you know, Sperrit, that we always agree on most matters is this is indeed one of them. Yes, that is EXACTLY what love is, when you have it: have it right there in front of you and get to keep it and experience it. that was very beautifully put and a bold example of why i admire you so much. your ability to put such a complex feeling into the most perfect of words. you also know that we always have agreed on this particular subject: feelings felt when in love.

well done, and well put ^^^__^^^

[Therin]

And yet...how do you know, when you don't know yourself well enough to recognize your emotions? Or have spent so much time hiding your emotions that you no longer know what they are?

Also, can simple philosophical desire blossom into actual love?

[Excel Zero]

hmmmm...sounds like a familiar conversation there Lews

anywho...love to me is simple....When I can lay in bed with ym wife and admit all my wrongdoings to her with no fear of loss and rejection....when I know that we will still be together the day we are wrinkly and 200 years old...but most important...when I look in her eyes and see myself, because I am all she is focusing on all day

that's love to me

I love you Kiyomi

Excel

[Nacht]

to the second: imo, absolutely. but that does, of course, go back to the dicussion of infatuation vs. real love. if what you are feeling is a fabrication (however real it may feel at the time), a trick of your mind to find something that you want so badly. the mind can make anything seem to be what it wants it to be. it can convince you that traits or things are there that really aren't.

to the first:well that is when you just really have to sit down with yourself and do some analysis. you are very familiar with analyzing, Lews. for example: when i am angry about something stupid, i say to myself,"why the hell am i mad about that???" and take the situation apart into little pieces to see which part specifically pisses me off. The same approach can be taken in matters of finding your feelings about love. You have to find the right question though; one that applies. For example: "Do I love her?" or "Why do I think i love her?" Then pick it apart. "how do i feel when i talk to her" or "how does she make me feel in general" or "how do i feel when i think about her" or "why do i want so badly to find love in this particular instance/situation/relationship" "am i missing something in my life so that this is an area that i feel can make up for it"

finding love is definitely hard; a lot of us want to find that one person that is just the perfect image that we have created for the person that we want in our minds. some of us can find ppl that are pretty dang close, but are still unsatisfied, still having that little feeling the back of the mind that tells us there must be someone out there that is perfect, or a little closer to perfect.

should one just settle and tell yourself that you will never find the *perfect* person, so keep what you have, or keep what you can get. but then again, there is that word there: settle. making do, or having the feeling that you are, can certainly only lead to unhappiness.

there is more to say about this Lews, if you wish to dicuss your "conformity" views.

[Razer]

Sperrit pretty much hit the nail squarely on the head IMO. Love has got to be (in my definition) the feeling, or collection of feelings, that you get from loving someone. True love has nothing to do with how the other person feels, shows, or reciprocates feelings. It also has very little to do with a physical manifestation (sex) although the physical expression of love (whether it be sex, handholding, talking, etc) is just as powerful and important as any mental or emotional display and is necessary to allow love to be all that it is for a person.

On that note let me also add that real love (aka complete equally reciprocated love) is a farce, for lack of a better word. As much a romantic as I am I am also a realist and will say that to hold out or actively search for this zenlike state of being is a complete waste of time. Excel, what you have is truly a blessing and no one is happier for you and Kiyomi than I am. It does exist for some, thankfully. However, looking for it, hoping for it, waiting for it, is the surest way to guarantee it's absence. After XX years of life, I'm a jaded romantic. I've been thru the giving and doing until there's nothing left to give or do. I've sat thru my heart being torn apart in hopes of things just "getting better". I've gone thru being a "wonderful man" one day just to be the brunt of all frustrations the next.

Nacht, I don't want to turn your original thought into something bad but I will say from many years of experience...

True love is a miracle
Real love is shit

[Sperrit]

I'd definitely agree with that last part, Nacht. While finding the 'perfect love' is not a possibility, it also doesn't seem right just to settle down with the first person who seems to be genuinely interested in your long-term affections. This is a conversation I've had with one of my good friends and the result is always complicated. There has to be some sort of balance, I think. A mutual understanding between those involved. More than anything else I think that love, when it's strongest, is based on truth and open communication, no matter what kind of love we happen to be talking about.
Now, about your earlier comment, Nacht. The possibility of unrequited love:
I'd say that if you love someone then it's only natural to worry about whether or not they love you back if you don't know how they feel. If you care deeply about someone, but don't know whether or not they feel the same, then of course you're going to worry.
However, there is a question inherent with that situation: Can you really love someone without knowing them well enough to know whether they love you back? That's a more complicated idea. My first instinct is to say 'Heck no.' As I said before, love comes from knowing someone so well and with such fascination that it would seem strange not to know them. If this is a requirement for love (of all kinds) then you cannot love someone without knowing them well enough to know their feelings for you. This seems to negate the idea of Love at First Sight, an idea that I always liked. However, it has to be abandoned as romantic folly (even though I really like romantic folly).
Now, if you really love someone and therefore know their feelings, can you still be worried about their feelings towards you? I think that depends on the person. Obviously, if they love you back you have nothing to worry about. On the other hand, if they do not, then I think the reaction varries from person to person. Some people would be resigned to accepting the fact that their love is unrequited and commit to a deep friendship, which I think is almost as good (and better in some situations) than romantic love (which is almost as good better than deep friendship in some situations). Other people might try and change their partner's affections, trying to win them over to loving them. In this case I think that, yes, they would worry about whether or not they were loved.
However, I cannot imagine you doing that, Nachti. Your maturity seems to have always been like mine in that understanding people is paramount in any relationship, but trying to change them is akin to betrayal. While it is important to understand WHY your partner may not love you, that does not lead to trying to change that circumstance. I, personally, think that this is the best way to approach any relationship.
Now, as far as your other initial comments.... I think that making people happy is the best thing in the world, period, especially if it's someone you care about, whether they care about you or not, so I'd have to agree with that. Also, that feeling of euphoria is, indeed, one of the best feelings in the world, but it must almost always either end or change, as the relationship ends or changes over time, turning into something that is no less wonderful, but different than it was before.

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[Excel Zero]