Church vs. State - Where do you draw the line?

[Saleb Duvat]

First off, I wanna say I am all for God. But I wanna also point out that any book written by man in the Voice of God is bound to have mistakes. In other words, I don't follow man blindly.

However, what does religion have to do with morals? I think that it is very much the job of the parents to raise their children to love and respect people. But I also believe that, to become educated and enlightened, your studies also have to follow those same principles. It doesn't take God to teach do unto others... just responsible adults.

As for religion and who should teach it to my son? I will take Valen to any religious society he chooses (within reason people... I certainly don't believe in cults!). But I refuse to teach religion as my mother did to me which was dragging me to Korean Baptist church where I understood nothing and then following Buddist practices in all other aspects of life. In other words... I will not teach religion as a hypocracy.

There is a reason they call it faith. It's because you have to have faith for the whole thing to work. Only you, as an individual, can choose what you believe in. That is not up for the state to decide. Otherwise we are no better than the Spanish Inquisition!

So, by all means, share your words. Follow your practices. Do what you feel is right. Just don't run around and force it on others. Let them figure it out for themselves!

[Shurikane]

Don't expect a lot of worshipping from a Shuri who read the Poisonwood Bible.

Besides, I'm spiritualist!

[Ming]

On the whole topic of school vouchers...

Rev, I don't see what you're problem with this is. SO FRIGGIN WHAT if the government wants to give money to 'religious' schools. It's THEIR money to give, and when you REALLY stop and think about it, private school kids are going to be the future of this country as well as public school kids, so in reality the government is just investing in it's own future. Wouldn't you rather see the government give excess money for a GOOD cause like education, rather than do something bad with it like buy weapons?

Oh, but that wouldn't make sense because the whole point is that the money isn't just going to PRIVATE schools, but is going to CATHOLIC schools. If money was just given to non-secular Private school, I doubt this would be an issue, but you (as well as the people who bitch about this) don't want the money to go to CATHOLIC schools because you all seem to disagree with everything that Catholocism stands for. For some reason, the Catholic church is looked upon as some unholy cult that does NO good whatsoever, and that really hurts me. I'm a Catholic, and while I don't agree with EVERYTHING they stand for, I don't look for unneccesary reasons to bash it and make an example of it. It's what I have, and I'm proud of it.

Too many people are too into 'politics', when they really don't know what 'politics' really is. Too many people use it as an excuse to go on personal crusades and selfishly complain about things they PERSONALLY don't like. Sometimes, it's complaining for the sake of complaining. What I have noticed is that the people who complain are usually the more liberal people who go around and preach accpetance and open-mindedness. They are the people who are always bitching about separating church and states, and seem to have no clear grasp on traditional religion, but rather try to modernize themselves and everyone else. I have also noticed that they are mostly all hypocrites. As much as they preach having an open mind, they have the least open minds. All they want is to have THEIR opinions listened to and to have THEIR way. They don't seem to want to listen to the legitimate arguments that the other side has to offer. All they know is that they will stop at nothing to get their own way.

That's my problem with 'politics'. Sorry if I offended anyone. And I apologize for being as unforgiving as I am right now, and sort of lashing out. It's just that I'm in a slump right now because I'm starting to burn out from school, and I'm prone to exploding without warning. Please realize that nothing I said is personal...

~Ming

[BWS-1]

I should apoligize to you, Ming.

Although my exemple wasn't targeting you personnaly, it did ... I feared it would hit someone deep inside, I really was in a mood that day, and I understand how it feels to see all that you beleive in being trown there as a joke. I beleive in Jesus, and I respect anyone that has a different religion, my exemple was a very bad one, since it shows me as amn anti-Church kinda guy. I don't like Church, but I don't hate them either, and what I've shown in my exemple is that I was fild with hatred against, not only Church, but there followers.

I am sinceraly sorry for the pain I have caused you Ming.

[Ming]

BWS, don't worry. You didn't offend me at all, actually. I sort of found your example amusing, if we're thinking about the same one. I assume you were talking about your conversation with God and how he OWNZD stuff. Actually, I really didn't read over that and pay complete attention to it until now, I just sort of skimmed over it, and still it doesn't bother me, so please don't think you offended me. What I am responding to mostly is how some people (and one particularly close to me, in particular...) keep droning on about this whole separation of church and state thing so over-zealously. I've gotten into arguments with two of my very good friends about the mention of 'God' in the pledge of allegience. They think it's unfair, and should be removed, but in all honesty, I don't see the harm in it. When you really look at it, it doesn't affect anyone, and it's not pressing anyone's beliefs on anyone else. I just think that some people waste too much time worrying about things like this and 'school vouchers' to worry about important things, like their own lives and families (not saying that my two friends don't do this, I'm speaking generally). We should worry about boosting our economy, rather than what the Constitution says about who's going to hurt who's feelings by saying the word 'God' in public.

So in a nutshell, my whole point to my last two novel-length posts was that if school vouchers were only being offered to non-secular private schools, this wouldn't be the issue that it is today. And I just want people to realize that just because you happen to be a religious-oriented school doesn't mean that you are not deserving of government aid. Why should religion have anything to do with it? It's not like Catholic schools are going to take that money to churn out over-zealous religious fanatics devoted to destroying government and starting a cult with which to govern. I go to a Catholic school, and I'll tell you...there's A LOT of different beliefs here, and ALL are accepted, not just the Catholic ones.

And again BWS, don't worry. Nothing you said offended me.

~Ming

[BWS-1]

Thank you Ming, for clearing this up X_x. I understand your point perfectly now and, to tell y outhe truth, I really think it's unfair to leave the school that would abopt a more religious aproach in its teaching without financial aids from the government.

I was inspired by some book when I made that exemple, I don't know the english title of it, but it's about a man that writes his questions to God, and God's answers. I put up a few of my questions and God's answers on my site just for the heck of it. ( when you're tired and all alone working at night, God's always a good freind to talk too! )

[Reverend]

[Ming]

But what long term ramifications? I see it as completely harmless because as you said, you don't say it. If you don't like it, I have no problem with you not saying it, and if everyone who disagrees with it behaves in this manner, then where is the harm?

[Aindriahhn]

Whats the difference between the two? Really?

[Reverend]

The best example I can give is the constant cases over placing religious icons in courthouses. The Ten Commandments are all well and good, and represent some of the earlier attempts at laws, but they should not be on government property. And while all these cases have ended with the removal of the icon, having 'under god' in the pledge of alleigance is an allowance for the legal validity of their presence.

I know I'm not doing that great of a job, so try out these sites to get a better look into why some of us weigh in on matters of this magnitude.

Freedom from Religion Foundation
Americans United for Seperation of Church and Stare
The American Civil Liberties Union
Baylor University List of Links