IT COULD NEVER BE THAT BAD!

D-Trix · Senior Otaku Joined: 04 Nov 2002

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Well, if you apply the CI to assisted suicide, wouldn't it end up as "All people may ask someone to help kill them at any time." Effectively, that statement creates a loophole for murder's since they can now claim that they were asked to help end the other person's life, just not told how to do it. Please note I am really not sure that would be how the CI would treat assisted suicide.

well, no. there are two actions to consider: one, killing yourself; two, help someone to kill himself.

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But pity turns into disgust when they actually commit suicide. Not because I don't understand them, because I think it's the worst decision a human being can take; a waste of a life.

what BWS says is very close to Kant's argument, as i understand it. Kant says that the CI demands an obligation to yourself as a human being - the term he uses is "end in yourself." whereas Utilitarians are willing to treat a human being as a means to an end, Kant thinks that you always have to treat each human as an end in himself (even if you simultaneously treat him as a means to some other end). so, by commiting suicide you are disrespecting your own humanity as an end in yourself.

i pretty much agree with BWS that suicide due to depression or other mental illness is weak and should be prevented at all costs; moreso with the ever-better drugs and other treatments for such afflictions. however, i meant assisted suicide in cases of fatal illness and the like. someone who knows that their life is going to end soon and would rather go peacefully at home rather than endure months of painful degeneration in a hospital.

i'm not totally clear, but i think even in those cases that Kant would object to suicide; and moreso to assisted suicide. but i see the CI demanding the opposite. Rev already summed it up nicely:

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if someone has made the decision to end their life, they have the ultimate authority. It's their life! It's their body! Perhaps I don't want to see people doing it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have the choice!

i think there are maxims of personal sovereignty, individual choice, etc. that come naturally from the CI. for instance: that i, as the sole posessor of my own body, am the only person with the authority to make decisions about that body; and whenver i am in my right mind, whatever decisions i make should be final. i think that is perfectly reasonable, and covers the depression scenario. incidentally, this is very similar to my argument in favor of abortion.

that's my answer to suicide; assisted suicide is an outgrowth of it. let's say that i, in my right mind and respecting other maxims, decide that i want to end my life because i am dying of an inoperable brain tumor. above i showed why that decision should be respected; that is, other people should follow the maxim "i will not interfere with another person's right-minded decisions regarding his/her own body." furthermore, if i am unable to kill myself and ask you to do it, you are perfectly justified in granting my request. i would even argue that to refuse is to disrespect my right to self-determination, but certainly to accept does not violate any other maxim: "don't kill people" carries the implication "against their will," and i've made it very clear that i WANT you to kill me. so why should the law prevent you? more importantly, why should the law prevent ME from having my request granted?

well that's my interpretation. you might have noticed that a lot of my own opinions are based on the right to self-determination. i think this forms much of the basis of what it means to be human, so i tend to hold this principle above others in a lot of cases. another interesting (though far more theoretical) question would be how self-determination fits into a scientific worldview that seems totally predetermined on physical laws. i'm still working on that one Razz

~Ted

BWS-1 · Otaku Lord Gender: Joined: 25 Sep 2002

Sperrit · Chosen of Earth Gender: Joined: 16 Oct 2002

First, we gotta consider what IS assisted suicide. Assisted suicide would obviously be when someone is going to commit suicide and they ask for help from someone. From this definition one could easily conclude that the person in question desires to be dead and is going to kill themselves one way or the other, whether they're assisted or not. So the question becomes: When is suicide okay and when is it not? Is it ever okay? Then once we answer that question it becomes easier to answer the question of whether or not it's okay to ever HELP someone assist suicide.
And I'd elaborate my views on whether or not suicide is okay but it's late and I'm tired, so I'll post tomorrow.

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Ming · DOOM! Gender: Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Well, I think that my theory of this ties in with my theory for abortion. While I don't agree with abortion, and would never do it myself (well, have my wife do it), I think that people have a right to choose, because frankly, its THEIR body. The same goes for this assisted suicide thing. While I, personally, may not think it morally correct to kill oneself, I believe that that is your own choice because it is YOUR body. If we have the exclusive rights to anything in life, it is our own body. Just because you can do it doesn't mean that anyone else has to.

~Ming

Shino · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:59 am Post subject:

OK let's try this again. I attmepted to post here yesterday afternoon, got finished and when I tried to save it, it died on me. That's when my pissed off self went to phpwebhosting and bitched at their support people.

I read all of this yesterday and would like to make some comments on what I believe is important. This is going to be long.

Darwin / Jesus Fish

Originally I believe the Darwin Fish was created to poke fun at those who had the Jesus Fish. Eventually it turned into the symbol for those who believed in that. Personally I would end up getting both of them if I got either. But I will get to that later when I hit the Bible discussion. The Satan Fish and the Procreation fish need to go. And any other that makes it look like one is right over the other. For instance. Ming talked about one where the darwin fish was eating the Jesus fish. Well the main ones that I have seen have been the Darwin Fish being eaten by a Jesus Fish that said "TRUTH" on the inside. When did Christian feel like they have to retaliate to those that don't believe what we believe. Personally this symbol offends me. Mainly b/c it makes me feel like many people look at Christians as retaliators. What happened to turn the other cheek. And as far as the word "TRUTH"... is it really? I will get to that one in the Bible discussion too. For me... Darwin Fish was originally poking fun, but it's a symbol now. Jesus Fish is based on the symbol the followers of Jesus would make in the sand to know one another as a follower. I would get both. But none of the others.

Abortion

I am and always will be Pro Choice. People say that abortion is killing a human being. Well if a fetus is a human being, why doesn't the government count them in the census. Bad way to look at it sure... but it's true. There are reasons where I feel it is better to have an Abortion. I have a friend who about 7 years ago got his girlfriend at the time pregnant. I was 20 at the time, he was 19. His girlfriend told him that she "couldn't get pregnant anymore." He believed her. That was his big mistake. He wanted to have it aborted (obviously), and I agreed with him. He was 19 years old, going to school full time, working full time, living with his mother and he barely made ends meet as it was. She did not want to. Even though they were not in a position to raise this child in a good home. Turned out that there were complications and she lost the child. Should people be more responsible... yes, but there are times when I feel it is better for all parties for the abortion to take place.

Adoption

Rather then make your own judgement calls or take it from someone who says a friend of a friend. Take it from me. I was adopted. Many of the children in my family were adopted. Including the newest member of our family, my GodDaughter, Madeleine Grace Mirando. People have asked me if I have ever wanted to find my blood parents. I tell them no. No b/c I am happy now. No b/c I wouldn't want to feel whatever feelings toward them that I would have, whether they be anger or joy. I would also not want to put them through seeing what they gave up. I have never been upset or sad in any way that I was adopted. I actually am happy about it. I'm happy that there was someone out there that cared enough to take me in and take care of me, and raise me to be a good person. I believe my mother has done that. Adopting a child doens't have to make that child feel ... unworthy or any other feelings of the type. If they are given love, respect and taken care of like they should be, why would there be any feelings of recentment or anything similar. There is nothing wrong with adopting nor is there anything wrong with putting children up for adoption. There are obviously situations where it is best for everyone.

Afirmitive Action

Do I even need to go into this. Sure I can understand it being put in affect when minorities were actually minorities, but there aren't any more. Sorry but I don't see how it could possibly be right to pass up one person for a job or acceptance to a college or whatever, who is beyond qualified, for someone that is sub par just to meet their "diversity quota." Give me a break. And the worst part is that a lot of those people that support AA also support equality. Ummm... isn't that a bit hypocritical?

The Bible

Many Christians take everything the Bible says at face value. I do not believe that the Bible is directly God's word. God didn't write the Bible. Man did. The Bible is Man's interpritation of the word of God. For instance... My biggest argument with this was the theory of Creation. Here is where we go into they "TRUTH" Fish. I used to work with a girl that was a die hard Christian. We had a conversation one day. The only one that I actually felt like I was in the right. Well they usually turned into friendly arguments about interpritation of the Bible. This is one that I won. Here is the basics of it. I will call her Jane.

Shino: So you believe that everything in the Bible is 100% Accurate.
Jane: Yes, why wouldn't I.
Shino: So you believe that the heavens and the earth were created in 6 days... 6 of our days?
Jane: Yes, you don't?
Shino: I believe that God created the heavens and the earth but I believe that 6 days to God is not 6 days to us.
Jane: I believe it is, why don't you.
Shino: Ok so if it only took 6 days, then the 5th day is when God created Animals... right.
Jane: Yes.
Shino: Do you believe that God created Dinosaurs?
Jane: Yes.
Shino: So basically you think God created Dinosaurs, then killed them all off, then covered them with enough earth so it seem like millions of years had passed, then created the animals we have on earth now?
Jane: I don't know how to answer that, but that's why I have faith.

Yes... faith. It is a wonderful thing. But you should also accept scientific fact. Evolution is fact. I believe that it is God that made Evolution possible. But I cannot believe that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 earth days when there is scientific proof that says otherwise. Hence why I would have both the Jesus fish and the Darwin fish on my car. If I were going to make one of those symbols, it would be the Darwin fish and the Jesus fish side by side, holding hands or something like that.

Good and Evil

I'm sorry Sperrit but I will have to agree with you here. There is a definate good and evil. Those that are evil don't realize they are evil b/c they are fucking nuts. Take Osama Bin Fuckhead. Find a law abiding citizen that is of the same faith and ask them if Fuckhead is following the writings of their religion. I'm sure they will agree he is not. Bin Fuckhead is evil. No matter how you cut it. He kills innocent people and things it's right. Do you really think that the holy writings of his religion ... Is it the Koran? I'm not sure ... say to do these things? There is a definate sence of Good and Evil in this world. I'm not saying that America is "good." But Osama bin Fuckhead's teachings are definatly Evil.

Suicide

IT COULD NEVER BE THAT BAD!

Sorry that is just how I feel about the subject. Suicide is selfish. What about the feelings about all the people around you. What about your family. And do you really have no where to go for help. Can you not talk to your family and friends. Not to mention that I feel suicide is the worst of all sins. You have basically taken a gift that God gave you and destroying it. Yes God forgives... but how can you be forgiven for something if you are dead already.

I know this was long, thanx for reading it all. I hope I have not offended anyone. I hope I have opened many new roads of thought for everyone who is out there. I know that this topic really got me thinking a lot. I'll have to keep up with this one.

~Chris

GAAZ · MOD Black Sheep Commander Gender: Joined: 14 Oct 2002

WAIT NO DAMN CRAP! I meant people who kill THEMSELVES with bombs guns and buildings....

Bombs by rigging their OWN homes to explode, Gune by shooting themselves, and Buildings by jumping off them! Crap, I was tired people! What do you want from me...Coherency?!

Ming · DOOM! Gender: Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Wow Shino. That was amazing, and I can't believe that you managed to respond to EVERYTHING we have been talking about in such a small space, and so eloquently. I really enjoyed reading what you wrote.

And as for what you said on suicide (since it's the topic at hand), I agree that it cannot be THAT bad where you are forced to kill yourself. I also think that suicide is selfish. My theory is this: When you think about killing yourself, take a deep, hard look at yourself and your life. If there is just ONE thing that brings you joy, no matter how big or small, you have NO RIGHT to go and kill yourself. I guarentee you that no matter how much you may think your life sucks, there is at least one thing that makes you happy. There ALWAYS is. But that is just my opinion of things. While I don't necesarily agree with it, people will be people, and that is, they will do what they want regardless of what others say. And that's fine, because you know what? It's their body to mess with. If they want to engage themselves in immoral acts, that's their business.

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Take Osama Bin Fuckhead.

That was one of the funniest things I have ever read. No offense or anything, it just hit me off guard, and was a great way of referring to him.

And that's all I have to say about that...

~Ming

Reverend · I kin Age: 41 Gender: Joined: 21 Oct 2002

GAAZ · MOD Black Sheep Commander Gender: Joined: 14 Oct 2002

I myself would probably say something like, "You sure ya wanna die?" Or in the case that they have something I want, "Can you sign this paper making me sole Anime propriotor?"

That or I'd call faces of Death and tell em to start makin another video...As long as the proceeds go to my friends funeral and family...( Note, Replace "Funeral and Family" with "Me" hehehe)

You may be askin yerself why I'm making light of suicidical peoples...And here it is...Anyone who ca't find a way out is either lazy or quite idiotic and hence must not be all that good of a person especially since they haven't considered their friends and family. So let em go...They wanna upset everyone by not bein here fine...Least they ain't upsetting us while they're here.

Sperrit · Chosen of Earth Gender: Joined: 16 Oct 2002

Shino: First of all, I agree with you that Osama is pretty much evil and that there are certainly (in our current situation of global culture) definite good and bad. My arguments were to provoke thought, not to expell my personal beliefs. Devil's Advocate and all that rot.
Anyway, about suicide: It seems that both sides have been presented quite well, for or against suicide. For (and I mean For in the sense of Pro Choice) says that it's the person's right to choose, they have free will (which was given to them by God) so they can exercise it. Against (in the sense of Pro Life) says that to kill yourself is a selfish thing to do because of the inconsideration for the people who care about you and your effect on the world. I think that both of these arguements have weak points. Pro Choice's is: If you have all this freedom then there obviously couldn't be a situation where things were so bad it was the only way out. You always have choices due to your basic freedom. Pro Life's is: What if there's someone out there that really doesn't KNOW anyone, has no family, no friends, a dead-end job, nothing to look forward to? I think it'd be easy to argue that their life's ending isn't going to effect anyone in any adverse way, and why should they keep fighting against the current only to die years later in the same situation? At least this way they can die on their own terms.
As far as what I believe... I have to say that I don't really know (which is a first for me, really). I've thought a lot about this subject (even thought about suicide seriously a couple of times... don't ask unless you want a long story) and I've talked to TONS of people about it, seeing all the different view points, but I just can't say.... I just DON'T know. Life is a very serious and complex thing. The ending of Life is more so. I'll admit that there are many facets to life that I don't understand yet, and until I do I can't know whether or not it's okay to seek death. The more I learn, the more I think about it, the more I realize that it's not a simple question of Life and Death. It's VASTLY complicated with all shades of grey. Maybe someday I'll know. Right now, I just don't understand Life enough to know.

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