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global warming: factory farms part of the cause? |
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ScrumYummy
bunnyhunches of scrums
Gender: 
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 |
 Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
Graillik--Did you even read the article? It said that vegetarianism was no better than a meat diet, not worse, and that diets should be adjusted according to individual chemistry. Basically, he was saying vegetarianism might benefit some but not others, and it's not the magical mystery cure that vegans make it out to be. He even gave advice on how to be vegetarian. And yes, it was somewhat biased, just as my articles were. Science can be spun very easily in one direction or another, as I believe you yourself pointed out earlier. Here I was thinking you were actually attempting to make a valid argument this time, when it's apparent that you didn't even read your source. You must have skimmed it and thought, "oh look, it looks like goes against what she's saying, that'll shuttr up!"
The next time you decide to make an argument for something, read your bloody source before linking to it.
| Ming wrote: |
He did? Wow, I had no idea. I guess the collective unconscious strikes again. Oh crap...I better watch out for Officer Joe Rogan of the joke police! |
ROFL
| Akanari wrote: | | ScrumYummy wrote: |
Aka, out of curiosity, how were you converted? When did you start, and why?
|
It's not a very interesting story, really. I gave up red meat Winter 2004 as an attempt to keep healthy (I was substituting my daily swimming with homework and knew that I had to change my diet or something would go wrong). I had no vegetarians in my life (Ah, good ole' South) and quite simply decided to do it on my own. Eventually I started eating less and less meat altogether and while at an Ecology camp in Blacksburg (It was actually at the VA Tech Biological Station) in the summer of 2005 I decided to give up meat altogether. And, well, it's been true love ever since. Part of it also has to do with my dad moving out of the house, since he was the meat-buying one in the family, as my mother is Mediterranean and they generally eat less meat. So yeah, I stopped getting weekly filet-mignons and I stopped liking meat. Even the smell of a burger in the same car as me makes me sick now, but watching other people eat meat is no problem.
I didn't find out my reasons for converting until after I converted. I just thought, "I'll stop eating meat." I didn't really research the vegetarian cause until I wanted to know what I was doing to myself, though I had researched the supplements I would need to moment I gave up meat. I've always tried to watch my diet, especially my protein because of the swimming I used to do (I try to keep those muscles) and the muscles I've developed from fencing. I eat much healthier now, and I'm much more consciencious of what I put in my mouth.
It'll be really exciting when I move to Indianapolis...I'll be living right next to a local farmer's market and a tiny organic open dairy farm. Ok, sorta off topic. XD; |
That's awesome XD Hehe, I find it funny that some omnivores feel bad about eating meat around me. It's fine, but like you, the smell can sometimes bother me. And, like you said, it's easier to be veg when you're not living with meat-eaters.
It's great to see another veggie athlete. I don't think that just becoming veggie makes you healthy, but it can make you much more mindful of what you're eating, which makes you healthier. |
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Graillik Tur
Renaissancetaku
Gender: 
Joined: 09 Jul 2004 |
| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
I read the article, and your response was, I don't agree with him. Then you come back and say that I didn't read it. I read it, and my point was exactly that, veg*n is not the cure all that it is touted to be. But now your saying that you agree with it? I don't undestand how you can pick and choose what you like about an article and not accept the whole thing. That is why I am confused, now more than I was before. Also as you took it as a personal attack says something about how you feel. Which might come from the fact that you feel you have to defend what you believe. I know this sounds a little concieded, but I don't care what your gastro-intestinal choices are. You like eating they way you do. I like eating the way I do. Only difference is I know exactly what I'm doing to your body. As you still don't understand that there is not a single naturally accurring complete protien in any vegan product, you obviously don't.
Also and I quote...
" There is absolutely no question that the average person does best health-wise by consuming a mixed
diet that is as fresh, and hopefully as unprocessed as possible."
but I guess you simply don't believe it or did you just skip the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. |
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Faye
Luna Sierra
Age: 41
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Joined: 28 Apr 2004 |
| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 12:46 am Post subject: |
Wow Graillik pointed me to this and I expected this topic to be completly out of hand, but everyone seems to be really civil and that is awesome!
*Disclaimer I'm not going to back up my views with any sort of statistic, namely because I dont care enough to do the research, but mostly because I'm lazy  *
But I gotta say... I eat meat because I wanna. I grew up eating meat, I am personal friends with a lot of the farming and ranching community in and around my county, and they depend on the meat consumption of our country to live, they are good honest people and make a good honest living and I'm gonna support that. I dont feel the need to justify my desire to consume meat to anyone, so I will instead state my opinion on why it doesnt really matter if we cut down or not.
Roughly 6 billion people on the planet, and somewhere between 300-350 million are in the US. So just to make it even we have roughly 1/18th of the population. I hate to break it too ya, but if everyone in America stopped eating meat tomorrow, and everyone else in the world ignored us.... we've done nothing but kill our economy. Congratulations we are now a third world country, but we've extended the life of our planet by a couple years at best  . Will it cut down on the greenhouse gasses, sure, will it come anywhere near saving us from destroying this planet? Not remotely. The companies will find a place for the meat to go and thus it will still be produced. You have to think realistically, instead of thinking that the companies that order all this meat give 2 squirts of piss about you or how many people you convert. Because not one of you matter, and if each of you on this board convert 100 people or 1000 people it wont matter, nor will it put a dent in the production of the meat.
Bottom line, its going to take a lot more than converting everyone to vegans or even somehow convincing everyone in america to eat half the meat they usually do, which will still likely destroy our economy.
I dont have a problem with Vegitarians or vegans, but dont ever ask me to be one, cause I wont do it. In fact, if it came down to a perfectly cooked NY strip steak and saving the world..... I guess its been nice knowing you all, cause I'm gonna enjoy every last bite.
Peace |
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ScrumYummy
bunnyhunches of scrums
Gender:
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 |
| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
| Graillik Tur wrote: | | I know exactly what I'm doing to your body. |
...You are not, and will not be doing anything to my body, sir. I am a married woman. XD
| Graillik Tur wrote: |
I read the article, and your response was, I don't agree with him. Then you come back and say that I didn't read it. I read it, and my point was exactly that, veg*n is not the cure all that it is touted to be. But now your saying that you agree with it? I don't undestand how you can pick and choose what you like about an article and not accept the whole thing. That is why I am confused, now more than I was before. Also as you took it as a personal attack says something about how you feel. Which might come from the fact that you feel you have to defend what you believe.
|
I will admit, I did take offense to your response, not because I feel the need to defend my actions or beliefs, but because you basically said that my argument has no scientific basis and was illogical and would not accept it as a credible argument, when you weren't using the article to make any argument, you just posted a link. You act as if I am not basing my "beliefs" off of any knowledge or research on my part. I am not, nor do I ever blindly follow an ideology.
There are points in the article that I do not agree with, and points that I do. Yes, I can pick and choose what to agree with, based on my own knowledge, research and experience. Especially this: while I don't believe that veg*nism is a "magical mystery cure," I do think that it can help prevent heart disease and certain cancers, and that can help people lead a healthier life. It's not that becoming veg*n immediately makes you healthy--being veg*n, as part of an active, healthy lifestyle, can help you to pay attention to what exactly it is that you are eating, and it ensures that you get the best out of your diet. You make sure you get the nutrients you need, the right amount of protein and fat, and being veg*n cuts out a lot of unhealthy foods, such as fast food and a lot of junk.
Let's take, for example, my father. He died of pancreatic cancer at the age of 55. His diet was pretty much meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner. After being diagnosed with cancer, he cut back on the meat and junk tremendously. It prolonged his life a full year--pancreatic cancer is fatal, and usually works pretty fast. Anyway, I truly believe that his lifelong diet aided, if not caused that cancer.
| Graillik Tur wrote: |
I know this sounds a little conceited, but I don't care what your gastro-intestinal choices are. You like eating they way you do. I like eating the way I do. Only difference is I know exactly what I'm doing to my body. As you still don't understand that there is not a single naturally occurring complete protein in any vegan product, you obviously don't. |
I re-worded what you wrote so that it made more sense and fixed the spelling errors, so if that's not what you meant to say, let me know.
No, that doesn't sound conceited, as I don't give a flying flip about your eating habits, either (as I have stated from the beginning of this topic). What I am trying to prove is that I know exactly what I am doing to my body, which you seem to not understand.
And you are wrong, there is a naturally-occurring "complete" protein--soybeans contain all of the essential amino acids the human body needs and is considered to be a complete source of protein comparable to animal sources. Read from wikipedia's article on soybeans:
"Soybeans are a source of complete protein. A complete protein is one that contains significant amounts of all the essential amino acids that must be provided to the human body because of the body's inability to synthesize them. For this reason, soy is important to many vegetarians and vegans. Soy protein is similar to that of other legume seeds, but has the highest yield per square meter of growing area, and is the least expensive source of dietary protein.
The analytical method that is universally recognized by the FAO/WHO (1990) as well as the FDA, USDA, United Nations University (UNU) and the National Academy of Sciences when judging the quality of protein is Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score, as it is viewed as accurately measuring the correct relative nutritional value of animal and vegetable sources of protein in the diet. Based on this method, soy protein is considered to have a similar equivalent in protein quality to animal proteins. Egg white has a score of 1.00, beef 0.92, isolated soy protein 0.92, and soy concentrate 0.99. The digestibility of some soyfoods is as follows: steamed soybeans 65.3%, tofu 92.7%, soy "milk" 92.6%, soy protein isolate 93 – 97%."
What doesn't naturally occur in any vegan product is the vitamin B12, as I mentioned earlier and as Mr. Roth (who wrote the article you linked to) stated, also mentioning that herbivores obtain the vitamin from ingesting insects. I'm not going to eat insects or animals to get my B12; we have tablets for that now, so I don't have to. Also, B12 is in dairy, so vegetarians that regularly eat dairy don't have to worry about it as much. I haven't excluded dairy entirely from my diet, but I don't eat it regularly (trying to avoid it) so I take a B12 tablet.
| Graillik Tur wrote: |
Also and I quote...
" There is absolutely no question that the average person does best health-wise by consuming a mixed
diet that is as fresh, and hopefully as unprocessed as possible."
but I guess you simply don't believe it or did you just skip the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. |
What he is saying is that the average person does best on a mixed diet, which I'm not going to argue with. At no point in this conversation have I said that everybody on the planet needs to go vegan (most people would utterly fail; my argument from the beginning has been that American society as a whole needs to eat less meat). His viewpoint is that diets should be adjusted according to the individual, and while I don't disagree with this, I don't completely agree with it either. I'm doing fine with the diet I have made for myself because I regulate what I'm eating and monitor my nutritional intake. This is difficult for most people, and the easiest way to for the average person to get the best nutritional value out of their food is to eat a mixed diet. But that also means that the average person doesn't need to eat meat with every single meal, and that is my main concern about our society--as a whole, people are eating too much meat.
Anyway. Sorry for the confusion. We seem to be having a problem with communication X)! So to sum up what I have been trying to say this entire time:
1. Veg*n diets enable people to lead a healthier lifestyle, but being veg*n does not automatically make you healthy.
2. Yes, it is possible for people to get all of their nutritional needs without consuming animal products.
3. Veg*nism isn't for everybody, but the majority of people shouldn't be eating the amount of meat that they do.
4. Whether you eat meat or not, you need to exercise, eat a balanced diet, and not eat junk/fast food.
5. I do not care what you eat and I am not trying to convert you, I just want you to understand where I am coming from with this.
Capeesh?
| Faye wrote: | Wow Graillik pointed me to this and I expected this topic to be completly out of hand, but everyone seems to be really civil and that is awesome!
|
We're all smurt here :B
| Faye wrote: |
Bottom line, its going to take a lot more than converting everyone to vegans or even somehow convincing everyone in america to eat half the meat they usually do, which will still likely destroy our economy. |
I don't care what you eat. I'm not trying to convert you. Just stating my opinion that it would be better for the health of the average person if they ate less meat, and that it would have a positive impact on the ecology if not the economy.
Although, a huge percentage of people in England went veg*n after the whole mad cow fiasco, and their economy is booming. The pound is kicking the dollar's ass. And I know that isn't just because a lot of people quit eating meat, but I thought it should be pointed out. |
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Al the DLOE
Director of Unpleasent Facts Dept.
Age: 43
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006 |
| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
you know i don't think i can really show my opinion w/o pissing others off so i am now gonna rent lounge chairs and sell popcorn as others continue the debate. i figure this is the most peaceful action i can take
on another note i heard a blurb that some are dicouraging using toasters since they contribute to global warming. source was AM640 this morn on the mike Mc Connel show. sounds like someone got bored at breakfast |
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Blackmage
Intragalactic Acquisitions Agent Mew
Gender:
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
| ScrumYummy wrote: | | 1. Veg*n diets enable people to lead a healthier lifestyle, but being veg*n does not automatically make you healthy. |
Apperently you've never heard of the food pyramid 
But anyways I know plenty of people who eat a balanced diet that generally eat meat at dinner time only and are completely healthy. Hell some of the healthiest people I know eat a good mixture of meats and veggies. The keys to eating meat is be aware of the way its prepaired and beware of the weither it has additives or not (i.e. water, salt, and other things.) But to me I view the vegitarian diet as not bad assuming you eat dairy and I know of some vegitarians who eat very limited amounts of fish for protien. As far as veganism goes I find it as health as the atkins diet. Also to follow true veganism you can't have B12 tablets becuase if you think about it... B12 comes from ANIMALS so you shouldn't techincally be able to have it. |
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ScrumYummy
bunnyhunches of scrums
Gender:
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 |
| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: |
| Blackmage wrote: |
Apperently you've never heard of the food pyramid |
Um, yes I have, and I follow it religiously.
| Blackmage wrote: |
But anyways I know plenty of people who eat a balanced diet that generally eat meat at dinner time only and are completely healthy. Hell some of the healthiest people I know eat a good mixture of meats and veggies. |
I feel like a broken record. Yes, it is good for you to eat a balanced diet that includes meat. My problem is that too many people unbalance their diets and eat too much meat.
| Blackmage wrote: |
The keys to eating meat is be aware of the way its prepaired and beware of the weither it has additives or not (i.e. water, salt, and other things.) |
I mentioned the dangers of additives in another post. Read this, focus on #4.
| Blackmage wrote: |
But to me I view the vegitarian diet as not bad assuming you eat dairy and I know of some vegitarians who eat very limited amounts of fish for protien. As far as veganism goes I find it as health as the atkins diet. Also to follow true veganism you can't have B12 tablets becuase if you think about it... B12 comes from ANIMALS so you shouldn't techincally be able to have it. |
1. There are non-animal sources of protein. Damn how I feel like a broken record.
2. B12 (Cyanocobalamin) is a cobalt-based compound and is not produced by animals. Rather, it is found in bacteria harbored by these animals, and can be synthetically created in a lab, which is how they make B12 vitamin pills.
Oh, and while doing research on that answer for you, I actually learned a bit myself--it turns out there are naturally-occurring vegan sources of B12: dang gui (a chinese herb), tempeh (indonesian; we eat tempeh on a regular basis), and yeast spreads such as Marmite (one of my favorites).
So eat that (pun intended) |
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Graillik Tur
Renaissancetaku
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
You believe that this diet had a massive impact on the life of your father. It doesn't matter what I say, because that is what you believe in your heart of hearts. And I"m not going to try to argue with you about something that is dear because of a past family member. I'm out of this one as long as we continue to debate ve*gan bit. If we can all get back to the original point of factory farming, I'm still game.
But what do we do with all the animals we have now? Wouldn't we have to slaughter them all and burn them?
P.S. it is amazing what can be typed when your not really paying attention. And a thousand apologize, please don't tell my wife.... |
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It is my firm belief that in this era of mass connectivity, the death of us all will be mass media.
Why do we insist in believing we are masters of our surroundings when we fail so miserably to master ourselves?
Last edited by Graillik Tur on Sat May 05, 2007 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Blackmage
Intragalactic Acquisitions Agent Mew
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
my last words on this subjec for now is placebo! |
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Akanari
Owns your reality
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
| ScrumYummy wrote: |
Oh, and while doing research on that answer for you, I actually learned a bit myself--it turns out there are naturally-occurring vegan sources of B12: dang gui (a chinese herb), tempeh (indonesian; we eat tempeh on a regular basis), and yeast spreads such as Marmite (one of my favorites).
So eat that (pun intended) |
Marmite!  Anyways, yeah, although I don't take b-12 supplements, I do eat a good amount of cheese, some tempeh, and also a lot of yummy drinks that seem made for vegetarians with lots of protein, b-12 and iron.
| Graillik Tur wrote: | | But what do we do with all the animals we have now? Wouldn't we have to slaughter them all and burn them? |
This cannot be an immediate change. It would have to come over time, eating less meat, producing fewer livestock and being able to treat them better. I would support raising animals to feed a human. I would not support manufacturing meat for the gluttony of humans.
I think one of the things Scrum and I are trying to do with bringing in vegetarianism is dispel any of the fears people have of not having a balanced diet. We (if I may) are trying to say that it is easier, and healthier for some people, to live healthy with a vegetarian lifestyle.
Please, please do whatever you want that is best for your body. Eating that 3 ounce steak instead of the 6 ounce one will be better for you, and the environment. And there are stupid ways to be vegetarian. What if I only ate chocolate cake? I'd be fat, unhealthy, and would probably die soon. But being a vegetarian for me helps me make better food choices and monitor what goes into my body. If I didn't have the care I do for animals and the hate I have for these factory farms, then I would probably just be a healthy omnivore.
Also, if I was stuck in the wild and happened to not have a soybean patch near, I would hunt animals. Wild animals. I would become part of the foodchain, not control it.
I would just rather the world start raising a more humane food source because the current factory farms are not only morally wrong to me, but could be hurting the environment. |
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