  |
|
 |
Passion of the Christ |
 |
|
| Author |
Message |
PO Info |
 |
Lygato
Senior Otaku
Gender: 
Joined: 13 May 2003 |
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:41 pm Post subject: |
| KenseiKurisuchan wrote: | | Lygato wrote: | | There is no greater grace than that of the Human Spirit moved to pure expression. |
Pshaw, what about God's grace? |
Now, you don't REALLY want to get into that kind of a disscussion, do you? If you do I'd be more than happy to debate it with you, but this would be neither the time nor place. PM me if your answer is affirmative. |
_________________
When the hour is darkest, look for me as a light in the East. |
|
|
 |
 |
Wins 0 - Losses 0
Level 1 |
EXP: 0
HP: 1800
 |
STR: 600
END: 600
ACC: 650
AGI: 650
|
Iubarithio (Axe)
(160 - 340) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KenseiKurisuchan
Alive and kicking
Gender:
Joined: 17 Mar 2003 |
| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:55 pm Post subject: |
Already have a topic for it k tnx |
_________________
 |
|
|
|
 |
Wins 20 - Losses 30
Level 8 |
EXP: 3925
HP: 2265
|
STR: 665
END: 800
ACC: 600
AGI: 1135
|
Crazy Sticks' Sticks (Blades)
(355 - 355) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gregon
Rookie
Gender:
Joined: 03 Apr 2003 |
| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:01 am Post subject: |
OK, here I go. I had a small chat about this with Shino when he was driving me to the hotel my aunt was staying at to spend time with her, and also so he could pick up my sister, but even though we didn't get too deep into it I could still tell that what I said didn't really make much of an impact, and if you're reading this Shino, I'm not saying this to make you think that I was offended or not taken seriously by you, but I want to take this opportunity to really get some things off my chest in a very well and thought out manner. After all, when it comes to activities that involve analyzing and debate, debating off the top of my head in real-time conversation is not a strong point of mine. I am much stronger when I write, and so I want to see how I do by using this Post Topic as not just to test my skills, but also, like I said previously, to get some stuff off my chest. I'm very much the type that lets things bottle up inside me, and I’m learning that I should do that less often. Debating in real-time makes me anxious and sometimes hotheaded because time is a major factor, while with writing, I find I am more relaxed, calm, and collected due to the lack of time constraints.
To those of you who read this post, I'm going to warn you ahead of time that it is going to be LONG. This I can already predict. So if you read the whole thing, I sincerely thank you for the bottom of my soul that you would take the time to listen to what I have to say. On to the main event.
First, I would like to start off by telling you a little bit about myself as well as my past experiences in matters such as this. I am agnostic. And so, as someone who is agnostic, I feel that I may be able to offer a more analytical point of view on this subject as opposed to letting my emotions get involved. Of course I can't guarantee this, but I will try my best to be as objective as possible. It took me a while to realize I am agnostic, but when I did, I felt very relieved, and I didn't "believe", but instead, I "knew" that I would be agnostic for the rest of my life. As with many subjects of this sort, I often notice that the word "believe/belief" is used quite frequently, and sometimes in excess. One of the definitions I came across for this word is "Something believed or accepted as true." What troubles me about this definition is that it is something that is accepted as true as opposed to being just flat out true. So in other words, obviously from a scientific stand point, it is something that has not been proven. That is my position on the word belief, which is quite accurate any way you slice it. A little more about my background: my mother was born Protestant, and my father Jewish. My mom converted to Judaism to marry my dad because I think it was because my dad’s mom wouldn't accept her otherwise. In a later portion of their marriage, the Mormon Church caught their attention in some form or another, I'm not really sure why. My mom and dad divorced when I was 7. My dad was never big on going to Synagogue, but my mom always thought that it was something they should do while they were married with us children. After the divorce and some time after, my mom pretty much pulled a 180. She now holds no affiliation with any religion, and is trying to get the Mormon Church off her back because they simply will NOT leave her alone. Once you get on their mailing list they will seldom let go, you've been warned.
So, as you can see, I haven't really had much stability in the belief/religious department. I spent the majority of my childhood and teenage years (thank GOODNESS I’m turning 20 soon) not really knowing anything about what is should believe, or for that matter, who I should believe. Also let me add that on top of this, since I my parents divorced when I was young, you can imagine some of the personal conflicts I was having all throughout my youth. I can say with confidence that for 80 to 90 percent of my life, I've never made a friend that I was able to keep, but thankfully things are turning around, and I’m very grateful for it. Shino, you've played a major role in that, I just wanted you to know - thank you. In particular I recall one friend that I will most likely never forget, though I wish I could. He was maybe a few years older than me and he was the son of one of my mother’s co-workers. Being in the situation I was in, I now look back and realize that I was in need of someone to look up to, kind of like a brother. He was really great, and I was always looking forward to the times when I would get to see him again because he lived about 45mins to 1hour away. And so, as someone looking for a role model of sorts, I was put into a relationship that would turn out to eventually backfire on me. This person happened to be Christian. He went to Church every Sunday, and was very heavily influenced by his mother. When I would visit him, it would usually be on the weekends, so obviously this means I would accompany them to Church. I didn't really mind it though, because I just saw it as something I would have to do in order to be with my friend. Kinda like him having to wait in the bleachers while I was playing a soccer game or something. However, little did my naive, trusting self know that this "role model" of mine had an ulterior motive. One night when I slept over his house we were sleeping in his bunk beds, him on top, and me on bottom. And somehow a discussion about the bible came up. I vividly remember him saying that people that have never read the bible will go to hell. And I said to him, "but I've never read it, does that mean I’m going to hell to?" , "Yes" he said.......I cried myself to sleep that night, wishing that I was home in my own bed.
For those of you who go to church and those of you who don't, I'd like to ask this: Has anyone ever tried to "save" you before?
It's not fun.
So there I was, cross one more friend off the list. By the way, I'd also like to add that I had temporarily severed a friendship with another person I was having at the time because he was cruel to me. But he was someone living in the neighborhood and at first we were pretty good friends. But when we would hang out at the movies and see various peers of this friend of mine, he would introduce me as his "gay friend". I don't know why he did this, but thinking back it might have been the fact that I lived in a household with 3 girls and no father. So certain things may have rubbed off on me, though I didn't see then at all. After being alone for so long I let this person become my friend again, and then he got me involved with smoking pot. I liked it at first because as we all know pot can lower anxiety, and judging by my past of trusting very very few people, this was appealing at the time. Eventually after having let this person back into my life, I realized that I was in a downward spiral. And on top of that, I found out that I had been suffering from social anxiety and depression for many years without knowing it. As with most things, the beginning is always the most difficult part, and this was no exception. After being diagnosed, the depression got much worse. My motivation was very low, and like most people with depression, I felt that the world didn't really amount to anything. When some people are in situations similar to mine, it’s like they are in an ocean not knowing how to swim, desperately reaching out to people trying to find help. A lot of people can't afford a therapist, so where do they go? You guessed it, those kind hearted people at your local church are waiting for you to come to them so that they can gladly help you - OH, but don't forget that underlying ulterior motive that people like this have. I'm not saying all churched/religious groups are like this because that would be very narrow-minded of me, but for people with my situation, they'll do just about anything to feel accepted, and some of these church people are just waiting to indoctrinate you with their views and beliefs.
But I had already had someone try to save me, and all it did was scare me away, because here I thought I was spending time with a great friend, when instead he had a plan for me from the beginning. By the way, my mom has not conversed with that boys mother ever since, because apparently, while I was having problems with the son, my mom was having problems with the mother simultaneous. Later on, my mom told me that this woman entered her office during working hours and read her the riot act about whether or not she wanted her children to go to hell. This woman even baptized another woman IN THE FUCKIN OFFICE. Sorry for the language, but IN THE FUCKIN OFFICE ! ! ! ! !
I know you're probably losing some concentration and interest on what you're reading, and not to patronize you, but I just wanted to remind you that I'm telling you about my past so that you can better understand me and my argument. And even though I said I would try not to be emotional, I want to reinforce that for the most part I've already gotten over these past events, so instead of writing them out of spite, I’m just stating them as facts regarding events that have happened. And hopefully by sharing some of myself with you, it will add more validity to my statements.
So, know that I've given you an adequate summary of myself to you, I will know proceed to my argument about the Mel Gibson's movie.
Personally, I am disappointed in Mel Gibson.
I remember someone in this post previously stating that Gibson may have made this movie as a way to express his devotion to his faith. This is my reply to that: no one needs to spend millions of dollars to prove that they are devoted to their beliefs. All a person should need is the confidence that what they believe has enriched their lives in a way that nothing else could, and that person doesn't need to make a movie to prove that to anyone. I know that this has probably been said before, but it would be interesting to see what Gibson does with the money he makes from this film. I haven't been keeping up with the statistics, but I think I heard that it is already breaking various records. To the person who wrote regarding this matter, I admit that I by no means know what Gibson’s motivations were when making this movie, and maybe you're right. But in all fairness, the only way I’ll admit this is if you also admit that what I say has at least some truth to it.
| Quote: | Ya mean cause he's never killed anyone before in that 2000 page snooze pill?
What with the flooding, taking of first borns, and fire and brimstoney goodness?
I think God HAS already played his hand and tried to kill off man MANY times but unfortunately for him we've advanced to a point that nothing short of cliche-ing the Armageddon movie can stop us...MWAHAHAHA! We rool joo!
|
RIGHT ON AZVEGETA ! 
On a more general note, I'd like to make some comments on religion as a whole. Of the monotheistic faiths, first was Judaism, then Christianity, then Islam. The Jews, if I remember correctly, were God's "chosen people" This was written somewhere in the old testament right? Well how convenient for the Christians that the New Testament was created. Then Islam, ok, are we going for the third time's the charm? I mean come on, It's almost as if they are popping up like fast food restaurants, McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy’s, which burger do you like the best? Judaism, Christianity, Islam, which religion do you like the best? I know what I just said is offensive to a LOT of people, because essentially it looks like I’m questioning the merit of beliefs that have existed for hundreds and thousands of years, and I am but a boy who has only seen 19 years of life on the planet we call Earth, but sometimes instead of giving long drawn-out explanations of specific topics, I just gotta say it the way I see it: people pick things or make certain choices based on what other people in addition to various habits that they develop from either observation or environmental factors. By this I mean to say that if your parents were raised thinking a certain way, then chances are they'll do the same with you. It's a proven psychological fact. Man is a mammal, man is an animal. Animals adapt to their environment in order to survive, although their priority is not their brain. Us on the other hand need to rely on a type of psychological survival technique so that we don’t go crazy…could that be the origin of religion? Who knows.
I'm not asking for a lot here. All I want is for people to put down their leatherback bibles with gold-lined pages, and then, just maybe, use a little common sense. Don't read from a text that was written thousands of years ago and try to apply it to the world we live in. Sure, the basic principles of not doing bad things like killing and such are valid, but why is it that the bible says that we are not allowed to go to bathroom? I'M SERIOUS ! It’s in there. Maybe someone more well versed on the bible can shed some light on this subject regarding the extrusion of entrails from the bowels out your anus, BUT PLEASE TELL ME, maybe there is something wrong with me, but WHY OH WHY do I have to read a book that is thousands of pages long that talks about stuff like this in order to learn that I’m not supposed to kill or steal? I'm serious; I am UTTERLY and HOPELESSLY confused. It’s a million some odd Christians against little ole me, and surely someone in the crowd would yell "blasphemy!' Because I used a little bit of common sense.
Why can't we humans just stick to the things we know? I think this is the question that will plague my mind for the rest of my life. We KNOW the killing is something we should not do. We KNOW that causing harm to others is something that we would not wish for ourselves. We KNOW that we are desperately trying to understand the world around us, and that we want to advance in our quest for prosperity and happiness for all, but why don't we all realize this? We don't a book to understand these concepts. They are, at least to me, very simple and straight forward.
Wow this thing is over 4 pages in a Word Document so far. I really hope at least a few people read it. Even if no one does I’ll still have the satisfaction of seeing my thoughts in text to better conceptualize them. These past two hours of developing carpal tunnel syndrome have been really fun  But don't think I'll stop there. I still have things to say.
Back to the subject of Gibson's movie. To me, I think the best word to describe it is "extreme." It shows violence which is "extreme" abuse or pain inflicted on the body. It's has something to do with religion, which is an "extreme" subject that has divided virtually the entire world.
Remember that friend of mine that tried to convert me? It's people like him that frighten me when they go to see movies like that. For a person that is already rather thick headed about their beliefs, movies like this will only make them thicker, reinforcing the stuff they already belief. In other words, this "extreme" movie has the potential to reinforce and even create strong views about certain subjects, which will then lead to "extreme" divisions in peoples' beliefs. There's another reason why I used the word extreme. Are you familiar with extremist fanatics? Sure they are in a minority, but that doesn't excuse bombing an abortion clinic and intentionally killing people because you disagree with a woman’s choice to make a decision that is already hard enough for her as it is. Now the parents of this woman, who were originally concerned about her emotional wellbeing after feeling guilty for choosing to stop a life from being born, are now going to be grieving at their daughter's funeral because some religious fanatic thought that the act of murder was the way to fix the world.
Also, let’s talk about some other interesting news while we're at it. I think it was a Gay Catholic Priest that was just accepted into the church right? They had something about it on CNN. Isn't Catholicism the one that says sex is only a means of reproduction, and it is a sin to carry out the act of sex for sexual gratification alone? And now they are recruiting Gay people. Get the straight jacket ready because I may go nuts at this rate.
There was a point in my depression when I thought about suicide. Most people with depression have these thoughts at least a couple of times, depending on the severity of course. Stuff like this, stuff that contradicted itself in this world, is what made me think about suicide, not just because I wanted to escape, but because I hated myself. I hated the fact that I was human, that I have something in common with the disgusting and judgmental people that live in this world.
I'm sorry if what you just read has made you uncomfortable, and what I mean is the fact that I shared so much about myself with people I don't know, but the important thing to realize is that I don't really care much about sharing something like this anymore. Because there are probably a lot of people out there like when I didn't know what to do. Fortunately I've been lucky. I have a great family that cares about me, but some people don't. If there is anything I’d use the word "belief" for, I guess I would probably say that I VERY strongly believe, almost to the point of knowing, that religion is not what will save the world. In an interview on Larry King Live, Bill Maher said, and I quote, “I have faith in the very good brain that whatever god there is gave me, and that brain unfortunately is unable, like any humans brain, to ascertain the answers to certain cosmic questions like how we got here and what happens when we die, and I admit those questions are scary, but the answer is to not make up stories about it.”
"Thou shall not Kill" comes to mind. Ever been to a slaughter house? All you see is that nice red, conveniently prepackaged slice of filet steak ready to be purchased and marinated at your local supermarket. You don’t have to witness any of the bloodshed, and essentially, you are shielding your eyes from a harsh reality.
Isn’t there a certain parallel we can draw between this and religion? Maybe we are making up stories to shield ourselves from a harsh reality that may not even be there.
I want to close with this: Look at the progress humankind has made. Thousands and thousands of years, long before the days of Jesus, Cave we used stone to draw on the walls of primitive dwellings. From this we developed a type of language, a way to tell stories. I wonder what the first humans were thinking when they saw the ocean for the first time……… I would’ve liked to have been there, witnessing the moment when those primitive forms of ourselves asked a simple question – “Hey, I wonder what’s over there?” I could sit there perfectly entertained, watching them built their very first boat, trying to answer that simple question that would be much more difficult to answer. Of course there is something supernatural that exists, making our existence possible, but all I’m asking is to not rush to conclusions so easily. I mean, look at binary code in a computer. 1’s and 0’s are making it possible for you to read this post. 1’s and 0’s that are merely switches that turn an electrical impulse on and off. This is what makes computers possible, ELECTRICAL IMPULSES ! Sure we can understand the process, but why is this type of thing is possible? Why does a flower grow? Why does it hurt when we stub our toe?
Why do we hate?
Why do we love?
Why are we here?
We’ve been creating things since we existed. Chances are we created religion. Chances are we created the idea of God. Chances are, we’ve created a system to protect ourselves from fear as a way to survive.
We create and explore because it is part of who we are. If God exists, and if God is a creator, does that not mean that we too are Gods as well, or at least Gods in the making? I know we can exist forever. As to how we’ll get there, we’ll never know unless we keep exploring. Certain ideas must be passed on for us to progress. No killing, no hating, no violence. Cultivate love. Arguing over a movie is a waste of time. Frankly, I think we have more important things to do. Gibson should have taken that 25 million to a 3rd world country and invested it in the future of people who don’t even have money to buy food.
I’m almost certain that I’ll be managing my depression for the rest of my life and that this world’s condition will affect me negatively at times, but that’s ok, because as an art student I can do something that brings out the best in all of us: Explore and Create.
For those who read this, I can’t thank you enough. I’m working on my Pocket Otaku drawing skills, so maybe I’ll be able to create something for you. Maybe that can be my way of repaying you for your time.
Comments? |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doot
Cute and Non-Abrasive Hyper Hypo
Gender: 
Joined: 15 Sep 2002 |
| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:58 am Post subject: |
Gregon, that took a lot to put to words and maybe even a bit exhausting to you to go through and relive many of the experiences you have had. I thank you for that. I know it isn't always easy. Your words have been powerful and moving and I think you have a wonderful head on your shoulders. I agree with so much in what you said but I can also feel your disappointment in the rest of the world for not opening thier eyes a little more. I commend you wholeheartedly for sharing this with us, I'll say that although organized religion is not my forte I do believe (and I know your view on that word) that Jesus was a real man, however I wouldn't go so far to say he was/is The Lord. Much in the way of passing along stories in old times we embellish and immortalize someone when they have touched our lives and I have no doubt he harvested the word of love and supplied many with that word. I just feel he had the same message you spoke of in your post: "Cultivate Love." It doesn't take religion to do so. It comes quite naturally, and you have spoken such raw words that I dare say if enough people believe in them you may start your own religion. After all, that is all it takes. |
_________________
Doot vanishes fast.
"Is it wind that makes that sound?"
"No. It is your doom."
"Makai shotto!" (Yeah, I'm sexy ain't I!) |  |
|
|
|
|
 |
Wins 60 - Losses 60
Level 11 |
EXP: 7293
HP: 2500
|
STR: 800
END: 850
ACC: 920
AGI: 930
|
Dark Blade of Miniopia (Blades)
(360 - 440) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shino
Fade into this fantasy, caught in the web of time
Age: 49
Gender:
Joined: 15 Sep 2002 |
| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:37 pm Post subject: |
Wow Gregon. That was quite impressive. I did read it all. Mainly b/c we never got a chance to finish our conversation and I felt I owed you that.
To all. I apologize ahead of time as I may start using real names. To get it out of the way now. Gregon = Bo
Skibirdi = Minah
Toolman = Ralph
Rollergirl = Tina
How do I relate to all of this. Skibirdi and I are together and have been for some time and Gregon is her little brother. I will get to my relationship with Gregon later.
This one will be long as well. I just pasted all the quotes I want to use from Bo's post and those alone were over a page in Word? Where to start?
Well Bo, I will start with you and who you are.
You and your family...
| Quote: | | There was a point in my depression when I thought about suicide. Most people with depression have these thoughts at least a couple of times, depending on the severity of course. |
I will start by immediately quoting the song you said you really liked when we went to see 311.
| 311 wrote: | Don't give up the fight to stay alive and even if you have to
find the reason of another's pain if they lose you
if not for your self then those around who care like I do
one day you'll see the clear blue
beyond the gray sky |
I always thought this may be true about you, but never knew for a fact. If you ever have this thought again, remember...
| Quote: | | I have a great family that cares about me |
That statement is absolutly true. I know that for a fact. I have spoke privatly with you, your mom, both your sisters, and your father about you and your situation. They all want the best for you and are behind you 100% in whatever you do. They love you very much. You talked about looking for a friend to "look up to." Well I hope you will do that with me. As the sappyness begins... Mainly because I am very much in love with your sister, and have always wanted a brother, and the fact that it is possible that I could possibly one day have you as a brother-in-law excites me a little. I have had most of the thoughts you have. I have experienced most of the experiences you speak of. I would hope that you would come to me in private if you needed any advise. I assume when you called me the other day and left a message it was to discuss this post. I'm sorry I hadn't gotten back to you in time, but Tuesday I just got home really late and Wed. I was working on PO.
Know that your sister and I both care for you very much, and I hope if you have a problem you will come to us, either together or seperatly.
When it comes to your condition, remember, you can lean on other friends that you have who know what you are going through. Tina and Ralph also suffered from depression and can help you in those cases, probably more then I can even since I don't actually know what you are going through.
Let's move on... I may skip around a little b/c the quotes are in the order they were in your post.
| Quote: | | One of the definitions I came across for this word is "Something believed or accepted as true." What troubles me about this definition is that it is something that is accepted as true as opposed to being just flat out true. So in other words, obviously from a scientific stand point, it is something that has not been proven. That is my position on the word belief, which is quite accurate any way you slice it. |
You must remember, just because something hasn't been "proven" doesn't mean it's not true. And even things that are "proven," say in a court of law, are not always true.
Sorry to do this again, but to quote 311..
| 311 wrote: | What if the truth is that there is no truth
the only thing I can prove is there is no proof |
How does a lawyer "prove" someone to be guilty or not guilty. It's all about the evidence right. Well evidence says that evolution is true. I personally say there is enough "evidence" to have proven that it is. I am a believer in Evolution. But the difference between me and most, is that I'm also a believer that God had a hand in Evolution. Heavens and Earth were created in 6 days right? Indeed... But what is 6 days to God. God has no concept of time. He is eternal. Evolution is the 6 days. That is what I believe.
As I said over the weekend to you, I also believe the evidence in the Bible. There are manuscripts of the Books of the gospel from shortly after Jesus' death. The four books of the Gospel, according to Matthew, according to Mark, according to Luke, according to John; all protray the life of Jesus and his affect on his followers and the people around him. If you read all 4 books (which I have not yet, so I'm going off of what I learned in church) you will see that they all portray his life in the same way. Four people, two that saw it personally, one that wrote down info from someone who saw it, and one that interviewed people who saw it. They all protrayed him in the same way. Said he did the same miracles. As far as I'm concerned, the evidence is there, and one of these days I will read it.
| Quote: | | It took me a while to realize I am agnostic, but when I did, I felt very relieved, and I didn't "believe", but instead, I "knew" that I would be agnostic for the rest of my life. |
Well I hope this is not a true statement, because if it is, then you are not truly agnostic. Doesn't an agnostic require proof. So if this statement is true, even if proof is displayed to you, you still will be agnostic. I assume you were making this statement based on the assumption that you will never see the "proof" you need.
| Quote: | | Of the monotheistic faiths, first was Judaism, then Christianity, then Islam. The Jews, if I remember correctly, were God's "chosen people" This was written somewhere in the old testament right... Well how convenient for the Christians that the New Testament was created. Then Islam, ok, are we going for the third time's the charm? |
I remember talking about this with you. I will return to my original comment. The Jews believe that the masiah is coming. Christians are pretty much just Jews that believe that Jesus is the masiah. The new Testament is revolved entirely around Christ. When Christ came to the earth, those who believed that He is the Mesiah followed him, and from their writings, the new Testiment was formed. Your comparison to fast food chains is pretty far fetched. Now, I don't know anything about the nation of Islam, so I won't comment, but I'm sure its creation is based on something similar. Christians didn't "appear" b/c the New Testiment was "created." After the death of Christ, the JEWS that followed him, formed the Christian religion because they believed that Christ is the Mesiah. Which goes against the beliefs that the Jews that didn't follow Christ have. Which would make them no longer Jews. Christianity was formed, and the New Testiment was written.
| Quote: | | Sure, the basic principles of not doing bad things like killing and such are valid, but why is it that the bible says that we are not allowed to go to bathroom? I'M SERIOUS ! It's in there. Maybe someone more well versed on the bible can shed some light on this subject regarding the extrusion of entrails from the bowels out your anus, BUT PLEASE TELL ME |
I have NEVER heard this. Anyone else care to explain this.
| Quote: | | Why can't we humans just stick to the things we know? I think this is the question that will plague my mind for the rest of my life. We KNOW the killing is something we should not do. We KNOW that causing harm to others is something that we would not wish for ourselves. We KNOW that we are desperately trying to understand the world around us, and that we want to advance in our quest for prosperity and happiness for all, but why don't we all realize this? We don't a book to understand these concepts. They are, at least to me, very simple and straight forward. |
OK so here's the question. Earlier in your post you said?
| Quote: | | Man is a mammal, man is an animal. Animals adapt to their environment in order to survive, although their priority is not their brain. |
Animals survive how... Survival of the fittest right. You say we don't need a book to understand these concepts, but don't we all follow the concepts of a book. The "book of laws" drawn up by the leaders that govern our countries. If there was never any government, if there were never any laws, how would man know not to kill eachother. Survival of the Fittest right. So if you are the leader of my "pack" and you are no longer "fit" to lead, I kill you and I become the leader. You are right, Man is an animal. The only reason we all do know "not to kill" is because we have been taught that throughout our years. If man was never taught not to kill, then the world probably wouldn't be where it is today.
This also relates to ...
| Quote: | | Are you familiar with extremist fanatics? Sure they are in a minority, but that doesn't excuse bombing an abortion clinic and intentionally killing people because you disagree with a woman's choice to make a decision that is already hard enough for her as it is. |
See the problem is that they were told to kill. Whether it be government, religion or whatever, they were told to kill and they did. When we are at war, are we not told to kill, and when we are told to kill, do we not kill. It sucks I know, but it is the way the world works. It's the way government works, and it is the way religion works.
| Quote: | | "Thou shall not Kill" comes to mind. Ever been to a slaughter house? All you see is that nice red, conveniently prepackaged slice of filet steak ready to be purchased and marinated at your local supermarket. You don't have to witness any of the bloodshed, and essentially, you are shielding your eyes from a harsh reality. |
This is also related and it goes back to survival of the fittest. In the wild, do lions and tigers not "slaughter" heards of weaker animals to survive? Do we not do the same thing? If man didn't have organized government, and were still in the wild, we would probably still be hunting weaker animals with primitive weapons to survive. And during those hunts, some of us would die.
Bo I'm not trying to get you to believe what I believe, nor will anyone else that responds to these posts, but I am trying to make you see another side of things. I perfer doing it this way because I do know you, and I do know how hotheaded you get. I also know how long you hold on to things. I just want to open your mind to other things, like you are doing to us. And I agree with a lot of what you have said, but I hope from this response, you now have some other ways of looking at things as well. I would be happy to speak with you further on this if you like.
| Quote: | | I remember someone in this post previously stating that Gibson may have made this movie as a way to express his devotion to his faith. This is my reply to that: no one needs to spend millions of dollars to prove that they are devoted to their beliefs. |
You are right Bo, no one has to spend millions of dollars to "prove" that they are devoted to their beliefs. But according to you, that's not what he did. He spent millions of dollars to "express his devotion to his faith." Everyone out there expresses themselves in a different way. Mel Gibson couldn't get anyone to produce this movie, but he wanted it to be seen. So he dumped his own money into it. This is how he wanted to "express his devotion." And we should respect that.
| Quote: | | Gibson should have taken that 25 million to a 3rd world country and invested it in the future of people who don't even have money to buy food. |
You know what, I agree with you. But couldn't that be said about all the people out there that are much richer then Gibson. Hell if it were up to me, we would take all the money that people have that they don't need (mainly all the billionaires and millionaires and stuff), take all that collected "surplus" of capital, and use it to do just that, but lucky for the rich folk, it's not up to me. Keep in mind, Mel Gibson has not yet said what he is going to do with the profits from this movie. If I was Gibson, and truly wanted to express my devotion, I may have done the same thing. Then when it's out of theaters, I would probably take what money I needed to break even on the movie, then give everything else to charities. But that's just me. You never know, he still may do that.
As a side note, Ralph is also agnostic. He saw this movie. He told me that it was very moving, emotional and powerful. I think he is glad he saw it. Even though he is agnostic.
Again, I just want you, and anyone else that may read this who feels the same way, to open your mind a little and think about other reasoning.
You are quite correct on most of what you have said, what I have posted here is what I have different thoughts about. I have now accepted your thoughts. You now have mine. What you do with them, is up to you.
Wow 5 pages in Word. I should probably get to work!
I will end with a few more quotes from 311... all from the same song.
I agree with these quotes.
| 311 wrote: | In times of trouble
everyone joins a team
no one waves a flag
for all human beings
No one's excited
unless they are divided
someone's going to have to give in |
| 311 wrote: | I'd like to be
one of the faithful millions
but what I see
is an excuse for the killing
Your denomination
should be a private thing
how about a spirit
for all human beings
How could something well guided
turn out to be divisive |
I believe that God IS the spirit for all Human beings... each religion just has a different name for him, with different experiences. Maybe one of these days, everyone will realize that. Everyone will realize that we are all the same and there is no reason to fight!
Thank you for reading! |
_________________
So many games... so little time
 |
|
|
|
 |
Wins 190 - Losses 169
Level 21 |
EXP: 11590
HP: 3150
|
STR: 1050
END: 1050
ACC: 1200
AGI: 1200
|
Bianco & Nero (Sabers)
(500 - 600) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shino
Fade into this fantasy, caught in the web of time
Age: 49
Gender:
Joined: 15 Sep 2002 |
| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:39 pm Post subject: |
If you skipped over Gregon's post, and my reply to his post, because they are too long or whatever... you may want to go back and read them when you have time. I don't think you will be disappointed. |
_________________
So many games... so little time
|
|
|
|
|
Wins 190 - Losses 169
Level 21 |
EXP: 11590
HP: 3150
|
STR: 1050
END: 1050
ACC: 1200
AGI: 1200
|
Bianco & Nero (Sabers)
(500 - 600) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shurikane
Dim Panties As String
Joined: 24 Sep 2002 |
| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:13 pm Post subject: |
Quick clarification: according to some, this commandment was mistranslated and should actually be read as "Thou shalt not murder another man." |
_________________
Gopher it.
"Remember when /b/ was good?"
"/b/ was never good." |
|
|
|
 |
Wins 24 - Losses 32
Level 8 |
EXP: 2375
HP: 2550
|
STR: 1050
END: 750
ACC: 800
AGI: 600
|
Graduate's Windbuster (Sword)
(230 - 480) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gregon
Rookie
Gender:
Joined: 03 Apr 2003 |
| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:20 pm Post subject: |
Sorry people but this post is about to get a whole lot longer. Hope you’re still interested if any of you have read it.
Thanks a lot for reading Doot and Shino . Understandably it means a lot to me. I have no problem whatsoever with your belief that Jesus did indeed exist. After all, there is no way that I, or anyone else for that matter, can deny that Jesus' name has appeared in many historic texts other than the Bible, so chances are that your belief in his existance is stacked in your favor.
Thanks muchly for your open mindedness and your remarks Chris. Oh by the way, That message I left on your answering machine was not about the post, it was about taking pictures of my car after the accident. The blue book value is approximately $3700, so I was wondering if taking pictures could really make much of a difference. I called before I made the post. Anyways, I am always open to other sides and perspectives as long as I can detect that someone actually used their brain to come up with their statements as opposed to regurgitating information that’s been told to them. It’s only when people are not open to mine that I start getting pissed off at them, then labeling them as narrow-minded. I know it’s judgmental of me, but someone who doesn’t open themselves to other possibilities is just that. When in person, my body language or mannerisms may say otherwise with regard to accepting the ideas of others, but that’s only because of the frustration of temporal pressure. So now, as a favor to you for clarification and understanding, I will remark to your remarks.
| Quote: |
It took me a while to realize I am agnostic, but when I did, I felt very relieved, and I didn't "believe", but instead, I "knew" that I would be agnostic for the rest of my life.
Well I hope this is not a true statement, because if it is, then you are not truly agnostic. Doesn't an agnostic require proof. So if this statement is true, even if proof is displayed to you, you still will be agnostic. I assume you were making this statement based on the assumption that you will never see the "proof" you need. |
Later on in post, I will explain a few of my theories. Even though they are not things that have been proven, they were deduced by using very careful reasoning based on various facts. Reasoning based on facts is much more reliable in my opinion. You kinda got me on the agnostic thing but not completely because some things are relative. Maybe I typed to soon, but yes, in a matter of speaking you are partly right, seeing as how language itself is debatable in and of itself. After all, we created it, so words only have meanings that we give to them. Indeed, I do make the assumption that God himself will never appear before me, because there are many “supernatural” events in this world and even in the bible that can be explained through some sort of scientific study. For example, I don’t know the specifics, but I believe there was a study as to why the water turned into “blood” in one of those biblical stories that I’m not very familiar with. I think they said that in that region there is a type of clay or mud of some sort that could have resulted in the vivid red color of the water. And so, based on this among other things, I still consider myself agnostic. I’ve checked various definitions of the word, and I haven’t come across one that says something about “requiring proof.” The closest thing I’ve seen to it is one that says, “One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something” You can see for yourself if you type it into the search engine at dictionary.com, and as you can see, that definition doesn’t easily lend itself to what you are saying. The same holds true to the Webster’s dictionary that is sitting on my lap right now. Like we’ve been saying, things can be perceived differently by different people, so If you find a dictionary with the definition you are referring to, please bring it to my attention. Otherwise, I’m agnostic, and that’s all there is to it. Also, getting into a debate about the use of language, how it was created, and why we attribute certain meanings to certain words would probably begin another post that would eventually turn into the size of a novel, lol, so I don’t think we should go there. To conclude this reply, the definition of agnosticism that I abide to most accurately is : One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism
| Quote: |
Quote:
Of the monotheistic faiths, first was Judaism, then Christianity, then Islam. The Jews, if I remember correctly, were God's "chosen people" This was written somewhere in the old testament right... Well how convenient for the Christians that the New Testament was created. Then Islam, ok, are we going for the third time's the charm?
I remember talking about this with you. I will return to my original comment. The Jews believe that the masiah is coming. Christians are pretty much just Jews that believe that Jesus is the masiah. The new Testament is revolved entirely around Christ. When Christ came to the earth, those who believed that He is the Mesiah followed him, and from their writings, the new Testiment was formed. Your comparison to fast food chains is pretty far fetched. Now, I don't know anything about the nation of Islam, so I won't comment, but I'm sure its creation is based on something similar. Christians didn't "appear" b/c the New Testiment was "created." After the death of Christ, the JEWS that followed him, formed the Christian religion because they believed that Christ is the Mesiah. Which goes against the beliefs that the Jews that didn't follow Christ have. Which would make them no longer Jews. Christianity was formed, and the New Testiment was written. |
For the most part, the intended that to be a hypothetical question. I was implying that this situation represents typical, undeveloped (remember the word undeveloped, because it will show up later in this post) human behavior. When people disagree, they divide themselves, and in cases like this, this division endangers the wellbeing of the populace. Having laws that stack up to the point of confusion do just that; confuse people; then when people are confused and don’t know what to believe, they look to someone to give them answers that they want to hear, causing them to rally around that person. Don’t think that I’m partial to Judaism just because my blood is predominantly of Jewish decent, but at the beginning, it think the Jews started off nicely by having the 10 commandments. I’m not COMPLETELY sure, but I think that this event happened before the creation of the Torah or at least WHILE it was being written. Reason tells me that these commandments would’ve been set out closer to the beginning as a way to set the foundation of the Jewish faith. So like I said, IF the commandments came first or very early, then they had a nice start. However as time passed, they added what I perceive to be jibberish, especially if you put the literacy rate in context with the times. I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but Christianity, to me, was an act of adding more jibberish on top of the jibberish that already existed, and well Islam, you get the idea. I made it a point to include Judaism , and because of my Jewish decent, hopefully this shows that I’m not picking on or discriminating against any certain religion on this topic. Keeping laws simple and reasonable so that they make sense is the easiest way to keep things running smoothly and on track. Adding more water to your Kool-Aid is just going to dilute it, and it won’t taste as good. To put it simply, and bluntly, religion has lost its flavor.
| Quote: |
Quote:
Why can't we humans just stick to the things we know? I think this is the question that will plague my mind for the rest of my life. We KNOW the killing is something we should not do. We KNOW that causing harm to others is something that we would not wish for ourselves. We KNOW that we are desperately trying to understand the world around us, and that we want to advance in our quest for prosperity and happiness for all, but why don't we all realize this? We don't a book to understand these concepts. They are, at least to me, very simple and straight forward.
OK so here's the question. Earlier in your post you said?
Quote:
Man is a mammal, man is an animal. Animals adapt to their environment in order to survive, although their priority is not their brain.
Animals survive how... Survival of the fittest right. You say we don't need a book to understand these concepts, but don't we all follow the concepts of a book. The "book of laws" drawn up by the leaders that govern our countries. If there was never any government, if there were never any laws, how would man know not to kill eachother. Survival of the Fittest right. So if you are the leader of my "pack" and you are no longer "fit" to lead, I kill you and I become the leader. You are right, Man is an animal. The only reason we all do know "not to kill" is because we have been taught that throughout our years. If man was never taught not to kill, then the world probably wouldn't be where it is today. |
Remember what I said about how the 10 commandments were a good start because they were simple and straight forward? And remember the things I said regarding jibberish? The primary laws that any person should know are ones that are able to be quickly recalled from memory, something that is always in the front of everyone mind so that they keep their eyes on the ball. By no means am I saying we should restrict this only to the ten commandments in the world we live in today, because today is much different from the past of course. But the law system in our country is hopelessly comlex. To me, the majority of man is still animalistic, because his brain (here’s the moment of truth) is undeveloped. Many people today are showing signs of potential change in the way of thinking. You are a very good example of that. To me, you have a developed brain because you have a good understanding of why things happens and what starts them in the first place, showing that you can find the origin of conflict and then formulate a way to prevent it. I wish other people in this world were as smart as you and Doot, along with many other people I know personally, but unfortunately that’s not the case. Now, back to why our current laws are too complex for reasonable functionality: A law student needs to spend years reading law books, not just to learn what the laws are, but to understand the way that they are written. When you read that license agreement after installing Windows on your computer, there will be some things, if not a lot of things, that you will have no clue what they mean. You might as well write the law books in a different language. To me, all that legal jargon is just way over the heads of most people who read it. I daresay that they want people to commit restricted acts listed in these agreements, that way they can sue them and get even more money for something the person just bought. Death and taxes dude, death and taxes. Now let’s look at the bible. It too is written in a form of English that is very difficult to understand. Sure it’s written in English, but at the same time it’s not, because the way in which it is written is so out there, that you spend hours trying to understand a paragraph that makes you feel stupid. There we go again complicating things for ourselves. So now you have to rely on other people to explain it for you. Back in the early day when the literacy was very poor and church goers couldn’t read their own bibles, they relied on their priests to help them seek salvation. After hearing you say that you didn’t cry about your dad until you saw his grave stone, I recalled some events in my life where sight had stirred my emotions. I’m sorry if what I’m about to say reveals a harsh reality, but what is one of the first things you notice when you walk into a church? _____Stained Glass Windows______ If their words didn’t put the people under their thumbs, then maybe images of Christ’s crucifiction up on a wall would get their attention. It’s just a thought. It’s almost like a version of the caste system: people are born into the lives they are in, and well…..tough shit, that’s the way it is, now be sure to go to church when you’re suppose to and give donations when they ask for them. Otherwise, you have contempt for your own faith that is trying to help you. I don’t think it can be entirely ruled out that these texts (bibles and law books) are written in a complicated manner out of mere coincidence. Am I saying that religion is a conspiracy? Well, remember that gay priest I mentioned in my last post? The priest hood was probably scared that the gay fostering populace would start an uproar, which might endanger the priesthood. Looks like someone went to business school. Learning trends, predicting and adapting to market shifts, advertising, demographics; these are all things that businesses use to become successful. I would not be the least bit surprised if various religious organizations were utilizing some if not all of these principles to ensure their wellbeing. In the old days, the Priests were the ones who prospered, not the common folk. Priests and Bishops were the only ones that could afford red meat, and they probably bought it with the donation money they received from their disciples. Sure religion isn’t doing this today from what we know of, but regardless, even if religion started off meaning well, I cannot forgive how people have used religion in the past and most likely in the future. Here’s an example: King Henry VIII. He wanted the Pope to give him permission to divorce his wife and marry his mistress. When the Pope refused, Henry responded by killing his wife, marrying his mistress, and essentially telling the Pope to shuv it. He renounced Roman Catholicism and proclaimed himself as the new head of the Church so that he could make rules that were convenient for himself. That was the beginning of the Anglican Church, and Henry was pretty much his own Pope. I don’t know about other people, but when I see the word monotheism, it reminds me too much of the word monarchy, and Henry VIII is a perfect representation of that.
| Quote: |
"Thou shall not Kill" comes to mind. Ever been to a slaughter house? All you see is that nice red, conveniently prepackaged slice of filet steak ready to be purchased and marinated at your local supermarket. You don't have to witness any of the bloodshed, and essentially, you are shielding your eyes from a harsh reality.
This is also related and it goes back to survival of the fittest. In the wild, do lions and tigers not "slaughter" heards of weaker animals to survive? Do we not do the same thing? If man didn't have organized government, and were still in the wild, we would probably still be hunting weaker animals with primitive weapons to survive. And during those hunts, some of us would die. |
Again, animals like lions and tigers have undeveloped brains. They rely on instinct, not reason. Man isn’t nearly as dependant on instinct as wild animals are, but when man is not able to figure something out by using his brain, instinct kicks in. Animals have not advanced as far in the evolutionary process as we have, and so having to deal with them is probably another challenge that is in our way of developing every single living thing’s brain.
As for how I said Gibson didn’t need to make a movie to express his devotion to his faith, the main problem I have with what he did is that (as I perceive it) he was probably only thinking of the positive things that would come out of making this movie. I don’t think he gave an equal amount of thought as to the negative effects of such a controversial film. Like I said previously in this post, “even if religion started off meaning well, I cannot forgive how people have used religion in the past and most likely in the future.” If Gibson produced this film with his own 25 mil. meaning well, and if something bad happens because of it, I’m not going to forgive him. If he has the audacity to play with something that is more dangerous than fire, he deserves to lose 25 mil. at the very least. Although, he’s already making money off it, so we already know that’s not going to happen.
I know you’re not trying to make me believe in what you do. Knowing that you at least listen to me and comprehend my words is satisfying enough, no matter what you say or what we disagree on. My sister’s lucky. I hope I’m as lucky as her in finding a partner.
That pretty much sums up my reply. Hope there are no hard feelings, and I’m sure there aren’t. We aren’t allowed to be mad at each other
The following is to everyone
I also want to touch on some other things that trouble me, while I’m here. It’s with regard to a theory of mine. Remember, don’t confuse theory with belief, because one is trying to be proven while the other is already accepted as true.
Christianity had Jesus. Islam had Muhammad. Judaism is still waiting for their messiah. Each religion seems to have a founder or leader of some sort. Actually having said that, keep in mind that Jesus didn’t really carry out the act of founding Christianity as Chris stated earlier. He simply shared his words with people hoping that they would learn something by taking his advice. There is no way we can prove he intended to create his own religion. Assuming that Jesus was a smart guy, I would think that his “common sense” would lead him to the believe that creating another religion besides Judaism would just separate society even more than it already was. And let us not forget that Jesus himself was Jewish. I find it very troubling when I come across Christians who don’t know this. That tells me that even the people teaching them their own faith are not being up front and honest with them.
But anyways, back to the founders of the various religions. Each one has their “figure head” so to speak. Why do these faiths need to be associated with people? Why can’t they be identified by the “beliefs and ideals” that they were founded upon? Also let me add that Muhammad of Islam was a warlord. Um…….I don’t know about you, but I don’t want my future children, if I have any, to follow something that was founded by someone who used violence as a way to ensure the future of his belief system. I realize Islam says that it fosters peace and non-violence, how could anyone not know this after all of the media attention it got when 9/11 happened. But there’s something wrong with someone who uses violence to “fix the world”, especially when they don’t know all sides of the story. Remember the example I used about extremist fanatics bombing an abortion clinic? Well, that’s what Muhammad is to me; a guy who believed that the ends justified the means, and so without hesitation, continued the endless cycle of bloodshed that has taken place since the beginning of humanity. Violence should only be used as a means of defense against what can be identified as truly evil, not what is evil to one religion but not to another. What we need to do is declare something that is considered evil among all people no matter their walk of life.
Don’t worry, all of what I’m saying is leading to the theory that I referred to at the beginning of this post. And here is part of that theory: It’s safe to say that Christianity is the dominant religion through out the world. Notice that in the past, Europe was a major places where various types of Christianity took root. Remember when Christopher Columbus set sail in the search for India? That would eventually lead to the colonization of many places on the western side of the globe, eventually leading to what we now call the United States. The original colonies of America were largely made of Protestants. The root word of Protestant is “protest”, this is because they were “protesting” against what was being forced upon them over in Europe, regarding their faith, and so they saw the colonies as an opportunity to escape that suppression.
Hopefully you are able to see the correlation between the spread of Christianity in its early days along with how many Christians exist today? Also it’s important to note this – Christians made their new religion because they didn’t agree with the Jews. Wait a minute! This sounds familiar. About those Protestants I mentioned a few sentences ago; earlier in history the Christians disagreed with the Jews, but now Christians disagree with themselves? Again, I may just be utterly confused and insane here, but how is it possible to disagree with yourself?
Christianity ISN’T the dominant religion because “God” likes them the best or because people unanimously agreed that they should follow it. Christianity is dominant because of statistics and the spread of human colonization. One person tells another person something. That person tells two people. Those two people tell two more people, and so on. That’s how beliefs like this spread. It’s simple mathematics. If Columbus didn’t set sail that day, this chunk of Earth we live on would almost certainly still be inhabited by Native Americans. (I personally think it’s rude to call them Indians, they were here first, and so they are THE true Americans if that’s the name you would have to use for them.)
The Jewish faith has NOT suffered the loss of 5 to 6 million of its followers because “God” didn’t like the fact that they didn’t believe that Jesus was the messiah. Those millions of Jews died because of a narrow-minded fucked up jack off of an asshole called Adolf Hitler!
I know you’re thinking that I’ve gone off on a rant that is completely off topic, but I haven’t and I’ll explain. The original topic of this forum was of course, “The Passion of Christ” created by Mel Gibson. I know I don’t NEED to remind you but sometimes I need to remind myself as a way to bring everything I say to an easy to understand conclusion, because when I write, my explanations are very long as you have now learned the hard, hehe sorry.
Lets put everything into context, shall we? Think of everything said in this forum as a big 1000 piece puzzle. All we are trying to do is put the puzzle together so that we can understand each other, and why each person has a certain view. But unfortunately, if we limit the answers to things only about “believing” and “Christianity” and “Mel Gibson” and “Commercializing Jesus” and “this list could go on”, then we are effectively trying to put together a 1000 piece puzzle when we’ve lost most of the important pieces and are now left with only (insert number here, I’ll just say 50 pieces for the sake of argument) pieces. We need to look in the cracks of the couch cushions and get up off our asses to see if we may be sitting on any of those pieces.
That’s what I’m trying my hardest to do, to find the pieces we aren’t talking about. Virtually everything in interconnected. Explaining to an alien why a fish swims with out telling him why a bird fly is like answering a question with half an answer. If people don’t have the basics of knowledge to begin with, there is no way for them to tell the difference between fact from fiction.
Oh ya, almost forgot. Why is it that Jesus seems to get most of the attention? Is anyone familiar with a guy named Siddhartha? You probably don’t know him by that name, but I’m sure you’ve heard of him before. Give up? That’s Mr. Buddha of the Buddhism.
It almost cracks me up to the point of laughter. It’s as if all these religious figures are in some sort of petty high school popularity contest. I wonder who won class clown, or best dressed, or most likely to succeed. I have no idea where my high school year book is. Starting to wish I didn’t waste the money on it.
So, what else do I think about the “Passion”? If said it as bluntly as I could, I’m not sure how well many of you might take it, but instead I’ll just say this.
Like many other things in the world, different people have different interpretations of what they see and how other people influence their opinions on what they are seeing. This is no exception. This movie is a ticking time bomb just waiting to be misinterpreted.
As for the reasons why I’m agnostic, and why many of you disagree with me I’ll offer this. Many people view agnostics as “fence-sitters”, people who don’t know what to believe, or people who are undecided until they find an answer they are looking for. I don’t see agnostics as being in an unfortunate situation of indecisiveness. Being agnostic is a way of life, just like being a Christian, or a Jew or a Muslim may be for you, or if you believe in polytheism for that matter. Yuck, using a word with poly in it just reminded me of Mormon polygamy, yuck yuck, don’t get me started on them. Anyways, being agnostic isn’t a handicap. I talked with one of Shino’s agnostic friends one time, and I’ll never forget something he said to me. He pretty much said “I search for strength within myself.” That had a GREAT impact on me, and the fact that he was in the marines made me respect him that much more.
I’m just a guy trying to understand my surroundings, and for that, I need to determine the things I “know”. I now “know” that I need to search for strength within myself to make it through life; not to “believe” that the strength of some guy up in the clouds will protect me.”
Please, I urge you to help humanity put its puzzle back together, if it was ever together to begin with, that is. We’ve lost a lot of the pieces, but that doesn’t mean we can’t find them and put them in the proper place.
Thanks. |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KenseiKurisuchan
Alive and kicking
Gender:
Joined: 17 Mar 2003 |
| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:34 pm Post subject: |
| Quote: | | On a more general note, I'd like to make some comments on religion as a whole. Of the monotheistic faiths, first was Judaism, then Christianity, then Islam. The Jews, if I remember correctly, were God's "chosen people" This was written somewhere in the old testament right? Well how convenient for the Christians that the New Testament was created. Then Islam, ok, are we going for the third time's the charm? I mean come on, It's almost as if they are popping up like fast food restaurants, McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy’s, which burger do you like the best? Judaism, Christianity, Islam, which religion do you like the best? |
Yes, the Jews were God's chosen people. Jesus came first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. But as you'll see in The Passion, many Jews did not believe that Jesus is Lord. Those that did, among with Gentiles, formed the first Christians. And I'm not completely sure about the whole deal with the Quran, but I do know that Muhammed, who is their holy prophet, says himself near the end of the Quran that he is not the way to get to heaven (Jesus k tnx).
| Quote: | | It’s a million some odd Christians against little ole me, and surely someone in the crowd would yell "blasphemy!' Because I used a little bit of common sense. |
What's wrong with common sense?
| Quote: | | "Thou shall not Kill" comes to mind. Ever been to a slaughter house? All you see is that nice red, conveniently prepackaged slice of filet steak ready to be purchased and marinated at your local supermarket. You don’t have to witness any of the bloodshed, and essentially, you are shielding your eyes from a harsh reality. |
Reminds me of the PETA campaign that said Jesus was a vegetarian. That commandmant was in reference to humans, as God told Adam that man was to have dominion over all the creatures of the earth. God also had people make sacrifices, which may or may not have involved killing.
| Quote: | | We’ve been creating things since we existed. Chances are we created religion. Chances are we created the idea of God. Chances are, we’ve created a system to protect ourselves from fear as a way to survive. |
In reference to primitive "man": I don't believe at all that Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals and the like are actually ancestors of our kind. As said in the Bible, God created man in His own image. Perhaps these were some kind of prototypes God made, or even just another kind of primate.
| Quote: | | Christianity had Jesus. Islam had Muhammad. Judaism is still waiting for their messiah. Each religion seems to have a founder or leader of some sort. Actually having said that, keep in mind that Jesus didn’t really carry out the act of founding Christianity as Chris stated earlier. He simply shared his words with people hoping that they would learn something by taking his advice. There is no way we can prove he intended to create his own religion. Assuming that Jesus was a smart guy, I would think that his “common sense” would lead him to the believe that creating another religion besides Judaism would just separate society even more than it already was. And let us not forget that Jesus himself was Jewish. I find it very troubling when I come across Christians who don’t know this. That tells me that even the people teaching them their own faith are not being up front and honest with them. |
Already touched on some of this earlier. Yes, Jesus was Jewish. Was it really His intent to create a new religion? Well, it was His intent to get His message across (that is, the message of God; in the Greek texts when Jesus says things such as "I and the Father are one," it is in the masculine tense, meaning of one person), and that message did change how the people viewed their spirituality. Yes, it is disturbing when Christians do not know that Jesus was Jewish. But, as it is written, it is by grace we have been saved, through faith; not by works. Although, there are many 'fake Christians' out there; a friend of mine that I thought was pretty deep into spirituality actually admitted he was only going to church because his parents forced him to.
| Code: | | About those Protestants I mentioned a few sentences ago; earlier in history the Christians disagreed with the Jews, but now Christians disagree with themselves? Again, I may just be utterly confused and insane here, but how is it possible to disagree with yourself? |
Easy. I'm PCA. I ask a PCUSA member about homosexuality and I'll get an entirely different response based on a different interpretation. When Jesus was around, those who followed Him had no disputes. After He left, Christians were among themselves instead of their Lord, and so began to bicker and seperate. Gogo Protestants!!
| Quote: | | Oh ya, almost forgot. Why is it that Jesus seems to get most of the attention? Is anyone familiar with a guy named Siddhartha? You probably don’t know him by that name, but I’m sure you’ve heard of him before. Give up? That’s Mr. Buddha of the Buddhism. |
Buddha never claimed to be God, he was just a teacher. Jesus was written about (prophecized) around seven hundred years before He was even born. Jesus is the Messiah, Siddhart(h)a was just a man searching for answers.
| Quote: | | I talked with one of Shino’s agnostic friends one time, and I’ll never forget something he said to me. He pretty much said “I search for strength within myself.” That had a GREAT impact on me, and the fact that he was in the marines made me respect him that much more. |
I search for strength within Christ.
What many people never seem to understand is that God is a loving Lord, not just some ruler that watches us with discontent. What your friend did is obviously wrong; for one, going to hell is not based on whether or not you read the Bible (do you happen to know what denomination he is?) or not, and the way that he tried to convert you wasn't all that nice.. Like I said, there are so many ways that people view the message, and a lot of them are wrong. I've given this offer to everyone else at this board, and Gregon, if you ever feel like talking to me about this schtuff, PM me or IM me (SN is BlueLightAvenue). I have to go shower now, bus'll be here soon. |
_________________
|
|
|
|
|
Wins 20 - Losses 30
Level 8 |
EXP: 3925
HP: 2265
|
STR: 665
END: 800
ACC: 600
AGI: 1135
|
Crazy Sticks' Sticks (Blades)
(355 - 355) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shino
Fade into this fantasy, caught in the web of time
Age: 49
Gender:
Joined: 15 Sep 2002 |
| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:51 am Post subject: |
I'll try to make this one a little shorter. Oh and Bo, are you sure we aren't "allowed" to be angry at each other, or do you just not me angry at you. 
| Quote: | | Otherwise, I'm agnostic, and that's all there is to it. |
No offence, but you seem to be playing with the line of Atheism.
| Quote: | | I was implying that this situation represents typical, undeveloped (remember the word undeveloped, because it will show up later in this post) human behavior. When people disagree, they divide themselves, and in cases like this, this division endangers the wellbeing of the populace. |
Exactly, hence my mentioning the need for rules and government.
| Quote: | | I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but Christianity, to me, was an act of adding more jibberish on top of the jibberish that already existed, and well Islam, you get the idea. |
I see CHRISTIANS as Jews that believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Now there are branches of Christianity that have piled other rules on top. This is why I consider myself non-denominational. I have my own beliefs, and many of them relate well to the Christian faith.
| Quote: | | To me, the majority of man is still animalistic, because his brain (here?s the moment of truth) is undeveloped. Many people today are showing signs of potential change in the way of thinking. You are a very good example of that. To me, you have a developed brain because you have a good understanding of why things happens and what starts them in the first place, showing that you can find the origin of conflict and then formulate a way to prevent it. |
THANKS! You kinda just helped my case. I hate to say this, but you are working on debating the point that religion is not needed. Saying that people have undeveloped brains and that kind of thing. Then you are using me (a strong believer in Christianity) as an example for one of your arguments. Here is some info for all those POers out there who want to know what makes Shino tick.
My dad died when I was 3 years old. Since then, my mother has been doing it all her self. And we had problems. We never had enough money for anything as my mother only has a HS education, which doesn't get you very far now a days without some significant experience. There were so many things I wanted to do. Football, Baseball, music. But I couldn't, we didn't have the money, and it was very hard.
I played football my sophomore year of high school. That was it. After that, I had to go to work. I started working when I was 13. I earned $50 a weekend washing dishes. When I was 14, I started working at McDonald's. And you know what, most of the money I made went to my mother to pay the bills. When I turned 18, my mother lost income b/c the social security money we got from my father's death was gone. More cash going to my mother to live. I had no problem with this. I helped my mother happily and without a second thought. And I still do if she needs it. She always said she will pay me back, but I never let her. She did more than enough for me as I was growing up. I have no problem returning the favor. A lot of people have heroes they look up to, athletes, musicians, geniuses. My hero... My mother... And I'm quite proud to say so.
Now, I am 10 years out of HS, I have my own home, a good job, great friends, a college education, and a great relationship with my mother and everyone else in my family.
Why am I telling you this? Because I didn't do this alone. You want to know about beliefs, well here they are. I believe that my father, and my Father, have both been watching over me, helping me along the way. You mentioned something about growing up with 3 women. I did it too. My mom, my Aunt, and my Cousin Lisa. I never a physical male influence in my life at all. However, I believe that I had a spiritual male influence in the form of my dad, and I also had God watching over me as well.
| Quote: | | Now, back to why our current laws are too complex for reasonable functionality: A law student needs to spend years reading law books, not just to learn what the laws are, but to understand the way that they are written. When you read that license agreement after installing Windows on your computer, there will be some things, if not a lot of things, that you will have no clue what they mean. |
Some of the stupider laws that are out there are like this, that is true, but the laws that are based on the 10 commandments are pretty much plain and simple.
| Quote: | | I daresay that they want people to commit restricted acts listed in these agreements, that way they can sue them and get even more money for something the person just bought. |
These people are some of those people with the unevolved brains as you put it. Like the 80 year old woman that sued McDonald's b/c she decided it would be a good idea to put a hot cup of coffee between her legs. Idiot!
| Quote: | | Sure it's written in English, but at the same time it's not, because the way in which it is written is so out there, that you spend hours trying to understand a paragraph that makes you feel stupid. |
Well, keep in mind it wasn't "written" in English. It was translated into English. Not only that, but you also have to think about the fact that the way they spoke then is pretty close to the way the Bible is written.
| Quote: | | now be sure to go to church when you're suppose to and give donations when they ask for them. |
There are too many people that believe that they are going to heaven just b/c they go to church every Sunday. In reality, it's all about the person you are. I'm pretty darn sure that I'm going. I don't got to church every Sunday. And I very rarely give donations. Donations for anything are always optional. That is very much understood at Churches too. No one says you are required to Donate. They encourage it, but what "non-profit" organization doesn't do that.
| Quote: | | Priests and Bishops were the only ones that could afford red meat, and they probably bought it with the donation money they received from their disciples. |
You are now making assumptions based on a lower end of the Bell Curve. Just b/c you hear about 10 or even 15 bad priest, you automatically put all of them into that category. There are hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of good priests out there that DO practice what they preach
| Quote: | | Here's an example: King Henry VIII. He wanted the Pope to give him permission to divorce his wife and marry his mistress. When the Pope refused, Henry responded by killing his wife, marrying his mistress, and essentially telling the Pope to shuv it. He renounced Roman Catholicism and proclaimed himself as the new head of the Church so that he could make rules that were convenient for himself. That was the beginning of the Anglican Church, and Henry was pretty much his own Pope. |
OK so Henry the VIII was a bad person. What does this have to do with Christianity. So he created the Anglican church. So because that one was created by a "tainted" man, you put all other Christian faiths in that Category. What about Catholicism? The Pope was sticking to his guns. He was following his teachings.
| Quote: | | Again, animals like lions and tigers have undeveloped brains. They rely on instinct, not reason. Man isn't nearly as dependant on instinct as wild animals are, but when man is not able to figure something out by using his brain, instinct kicks in. |
Again, we are animals. We also have very underdeveloped brains. Humans only use about 10% of their brain's actual power. We rely on reason only b/c from birth we are taught to rely on reason. If we were never taught by those who follow religion, government, etc, then we would all be animals killing each other to survive on instinct.
| Quote: | | Animals have not advanced as far in the evolutionary process as we have, and so having to deal with them is probably another challenge that is in our way of developing every single living thing's brain. |
Actually, if you consider the way evolution works, mathematically, there are thousands of species of animals that have advanced as far in the evolutionary process as we have. Only real difference is they took a different path down the evolutionary chain.
| Quote: | | If Gibson produced this film with his own 25 mil. meaning well, and if something bad happens because of it, I'm not going to forgive him. |
OK, this statement is just tainted by the fact that you are against it all together. This is basically like saying... if someone needs some cash, and I loan them cash, meaning well, then they go out and buy drugs with it and die of an overdose, that you wouldn't forgive me for that.
You can't blame one person for someone else's stupidity.
| Quote: | | Also it's important to note this... Christians made their new religion because they didn't agree with the Jews. |
I think Kensei did a pretty good job of talking about this. I will just add that the Christians didn't not agree with the Jews. The now had a different belief system, so technically, the were no longer Jews at all.
| Quote: | | About those Protestants I mentioned a few sentences ago; earlier in history the Christians disagreed with the Jews, but now Christians disagree with themselves? Again, I may just be utterly confused and insane here, but how is it possible to disagree with yourself? |
Again, Kensei, thank you for your comment. I agree.
| Quote: | | It almost cracks me up to the point of laughter. It's as if all these religious figures are in some sort of petty high school popularity contest. I wonder who won class clown, or best dressed, or most likely to succeed. I have no idea where my high school year book is. Starting to wish I waste the money on it. |
Man, Kensei is on a roll here.
| Quote: | | Yuck, using a word with poly in it just reminded me of Mormon polygamy, yuck yuck, don?t get me started on them. |
You know what, you probably shouldn't get into that. Especially since we have several Mormon's on this board.
| Quote: | | I talked with one of Shino's agnostic friends one time, and I'll never forget something he said to me. He pretty much said ?I search for strength within myself.? That had a GREAT impact on me, and the fact that he was in the marines made me respect him that much more. |
You know, him being a Marine has nothing to do with his beliefs. Over 90% of people in the world believe in God in some way, shape or form. Marines are no different. He was agnostic before he went in. And again, he saw this movie and from what I can tell, he is glad he saw it. There is no doubt that Jesus was an actual man that walked this earth. All historical documentation from that period mentions him, even holy texts of other religions. The real question is, is he the son of God? I believe he is. This movie portrays the last 12 hours of this man's life. As far as strength. I search for strength within myself as well. But I also get strength from the fact that I know God is watching over me, and that I am not alone in my battles. I do not face life alone. Searching for strength and actually finding it, are two different things. Sometimes I don't find the strength I need within myself, it is at that time, that I turn to God for His divine assistance.
Kensei, thank you for your comments. You are much wiser than I when it comes to religion. I hope you continue to keep up with this topic if it continues.
Some of the quotes got screwed up b/c MS Word sucks ass! |
_________________
So many games... so little time
|
|
|
|
|
Wins 190 - Losses 169
Level 21 |
EXP: 11590
HP: 3150
|
STR: 1050
END: 1050
ACC: 1200
AGI: 1200
|
Bianco & Nero (Sabers)
(500 - 600) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
