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Kugyou
Katori Shintaro!
Age: 44
Gender: 
Joined: 26 Sep 2005 |
 Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:28 am Post subject: 212 million illegal immigrants? |
NOTE: This thread is not about the politics or ethics of illegal immigration. It is about the mathematics of it.
I'm not going to post links to the thread involved, since it's off on another forum we don't talk about. But I had to post this somewhere - I'm in a discussion on said other forum about the English language as it pertains to America. The thread started based on this news story, and has at times degenerated into discussions about immigration.
The two topics were recently joined together by one user making the claim that English is not the majority language in the US - that it's actually Spanish. When presented with census data that showed that the incidence of primarily-Spanish-speaking households was closer to 11.5%, she made wild claims about the census bureau. When those were shot down, her next argument was the number of illegal immigrants in the country.
I initially posed the question to her: Are you saying that you believe there are over one hundred million illegal immigrants in this country? Of course she stated yes, because to back down would weaken her argument. Then I did the math. According to the 2000 census, the population of the US was approximately (rounded to the nearest ten million) 270 million. The primarily-Spanish-speaking citizens stood at (rounded to the nearest million) 29 million. In order for the remaining 241 million non-Spanish-primary citizens to be outnumbered, there would have to be 212 million illegal immigrants.
You think we might have noticed if the country had a total population of almost half a billion, wouldn't you? |
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Shino
Fade into this fantasy, caught in the web of time
Age: 49
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Joined: 15 Sep 2002 |
| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Kugyou
Katori Shintaro!
Age: 44
Gender:
Joined: 26 Sep 2005 |
| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: |
To update a bit, she's now saying that I must not live in the real world because my numbers don't agree with her opinion. Her examples? Living in Florida and New York City. Do I even need to explain why that is a statistical fallacy? |
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CI, Eqvites Ivbalis, Order of the Knights of Jubal
"It is the end of days, and I am the reaper." --Alessa
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Akanari
Owns your reality
Gender: 
Joined: 29 Sep 2004 |
| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: |
Her examples are living in Florida and New York?!
Ugh. Some of these people make life so difficult. I applaud you, Kugyou, for putting up with this woman. She has quite an interesting little world.
Anyways, that's an interesting article. I think the shopowner has full right to post the sign. It says they've turned no one away (so says the owner), so they're not discriminating against certain races, they'd just like people to speak English when ordering.
The executive director of the city's Commission on Human Relations:
| Quote: | | "It's discouraging patronage by non-English speaking customers because of their national origin or ancestry," Lawton said. |
And....Why does she care? I mean, there are reasons for that statement, but it does not directly concern her. The restaurant owner also said that he posted the sign because of concern over the immigration reform and the increasing number of people who cannot order in English. Freedom of Speech? Or is it really discrimination?
Heh, problem is, people that can't speak English can't read English either. :] |
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Kugyou
Katori Shintaro!
Age: 44
Gender:
Joined: 26 Sep 2005 |
| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
| Akanari wrote: | Her examples are living in Florida and New York?!
Ugh. Some of these people make life so difficult. I applaud you, Kugyou, for putting up with this woman. She has quite an interesting little world. |
Especially since she's about nineteen and thinks that the Census Bureau is full of blind ignorant fools who should listen to her instead of data. She pretty much started on ad hominem from her first response to me, calling me 'sweetie' (since my avatar on said forum is female).
| Akanari (cont'd.) wrote: | | Anyways, that's an interesting article. I think the shopowner has full right to post the sign. It says they've turned no one away (so says the owner), so they're not discriminating against certain races, they'd just like people to speak English when ordering. |
I especially like the bit in the article where they mention that the owner is the grandchild of Sicilian immigrants who learned English.
| Akanari (cont'd.) wrote: | | And....Why does she care? I mean, there are reasons for that statement, but it does not directly concern her. The restaurant owner also said that he posted the sign because of concern over the immigration reform and the increasing number of people who cannot order in English. Freedom of Speech? Or is it really discrimination? |
I figure any business in this country has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. It's often posted somewhere on the premises of many businesses. I'm impressed that he hasn't turned anyone away, in fact. |
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CI, Eqvites Ivbalis, Order of the Knights of Jubal
"It is the end of days, and I am the reaper." --Alessa
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Ming
DOOM!
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Joined: 13 Jan 2003 |
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
| Kugyou wrote: | | Her examples? Living in Florida and New York City. |
I used to live in NYC, I went to school in NYC, and I spend a decent amount of time in NYC, and I gotta tell you, if there is this vast majority of illegal immigrants, they must be ninjas because I haven't seen them. I will admit, there are A LOT of Spanish speaking people in New York, and I'm sure New York has a higher percentage of illegal immigrants than most places, but it's no where on the level that this person is arguing with you on.
| Kugyou wrote: | | I figure any business in this country has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. |
Actually, I've been seeing signs go up in a number of stores recently that say they will refuse you service if you come up to the counter while talking on your cell phone. It's pretty much the same principle. It's not discriminating, it's just damn annoying for the people who are trying to take care of you, and by not allowing it, it allows for a smoother and more pleasant transaction. |
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GAAZ
MOD Black Sheep Commander
Gender:
Joined: 14 Oct 2002 |
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: |
| Ming wrote: |
I used to live in NYC, I went to school in NYC, and I spend a decent amount of time in NYC, and I gotta tell you, if there is this vast majority of illegal immigrants, they must be ninjas because I haven't seen them. I will admit, there are A LOT of Spanish speaking people in New York, and I'm sure New York has a higher percentage of illegal immigrants than most places, but it's no where on the level that this person is arguing with you on.
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While I'm sure NYC has a high percentage of Illegals I'm sure it can't compare to
San Diego
Los Angeles
Nogales
Yuma
Phoenix
El Paso
At any rate there aren't 212 Million illegals in America...I'm guessing it's more than the projected 12 million and probably more like 30 Million. |
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Blackmage
Intragalactic Acquisitions Agent Mew
Gender:
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 |
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: |
theres probably close to a mill easy in the atlanta area... |
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Nogrick
Everybody DANCE!
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002 |
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: |
The only illegal immigrants I know of are the ones who used to clean the floor at TRU. They did a damn good job, but didn't speak a lick of english, so it was kinda hard to tell them where the can and can't go.
I also get sick of the people who insist on speaking spanish to me at my store. I took spanish for a few years, but I'm nowhere near the level that they're at. Besides one of my coworkers, who was originally from Venezuela, said that he hates it when immigrants of any kind refuse to learn english. Not all stores and services are going to be able to cater to your needs. Heck he even said people should have to pass an english course to get into the US. Now I'm not that harsh, but I see his point. |
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shadokastur
Patience to see and strength to do. That is all.
Gender:
Joined: 26 Jan 2003 |
| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: |
Man, that's funny. When I lived in Philly, we lived pretty close to Geno's.
Yeah with the population growth I'm sure GAAZ is right but that still doesn't make a majority. Oh well. |
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