(For Men Only) Are you stuck in the friend zone?¿?

[Terin]

First off, before anyone starts calling me sexist, the reason for "men only" in the title is that I can only help men in this situation. That being said, it doesn't mean that women cannot read the post, and reply to them at all, that would be stupid. What it does mean is that what I'm trying to do based on the knowledge I have as well as material doesn't apply to women. Plus, cmon, what woman is stuck in the friend zone with a man she wants as an intimate partner? Those are few and far between. Guys are another story.

I'm an AFC, more commonly known as A Frustrated Chump. Anyone who knows where I'm going with this at this point probably doesn't need this thread. For those of you who are still curious, read on...

I get one-itis easily. One-itis is when a guy falls hard for a girl and becomes exclusive with her in his own mind. What makes it a "disease" is that the guy never reveals how he feels about the girl, and he becomes her BFF, instead of the love of her life. (which is his ultimate goal). I've been down this road at least twice, and I have at least one insanely hot friend as a result (See Selena as my #1 friend at www.myspace.com/terinbune ) See, I did what most of us who aren't naturals did, I thought being nice was going to work. Who doesn't like a nice guy? The answer is nobody. That's the problem, you're LIKED, not LOVED (or at least infatuated.) So what to do? Be an asshole? No, that's definitely not the answer, that will only attract women with low self-esteem, and who wants that? (Women, you wouldn't want Captain Mopey as a BF, would you?) So If you want a confident, fun-loving gf, guess what? You have to be a confident, fun-loving guy. You have to be more of that than she is, after all, she has to have something to gain from being with you in order to feel attracted, right? It makes sense.

So I have the right mindset. I have the knowledge too. I have the material for anyone who's interested, and I want to squash this bug, this AFC stigma that's been the definition of my sex life since the birth of my puberty. I know I'm not alone. Hell, I don't want to do it alone. I guess that's the reason for my post. I want to help, and I want to be helped. I'm sick of being the wallflower when it comes to romance. Anyone who's interested in learning more and wanting to reform the AFC in them, PM me. If you're in the Atlanta area, we'll talk in person. I'll give you access to the material I have. We'll tackle this thing together.
-T

[Blackmage]

I know this feeling all too well and generally have things screw up when going for more. But I think I'm making decent progress with getting myself out of this situation with a friend I work with.

[Faye]

First off I would like to direct you're attention to an old old old post of mine. My initial post doesnt really pertain much to you're problem but some of the responces I think might give you some perspective

http://www.pocketotaku.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7406&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Here's my advice, and keep in mind I'm not an expert but I have been stuck in the friend zone enough times to know it like the back of my hand. This is my only piece of advice. Be yourself. I cant stress how important that is, because if you are putting on this big act to rope a girl into liking you, you are both just going to end up disapointed in the end. If you are an asshole, be an asshole(some girls actually like this). If you are nice then be nice (keeping in mind there is a fine line between nice and creepy). If you are funny, then be funny. When the right girl/guy comes along they'll know it, and more importantly, you'll know it too.

[FawkesFyre]

I know this may sound vague but if any friendly relationship intends to make it to the next level, it will just happen. There's really no right or wrong answer to it.

My past relationship and my present one both started out as friends. But they escalated in completely different ways.

I think the more you fixate on it all, the less chance you have....you're distracting yourself from being yourself.

[Terin]

[Graillik Tur]

Look, Faye and I have argued this for years. It is about being attractive. I'm not saying lie, but there are certain qualities that every woman finds more attractive in a mate. That is the end goal is to mate isn't it? Before I went into the military I was what you would call a "nice guy", after a few years I Figured out what this "nice guy" is. It's a beta dog. It doesn't make waves, it takes it's commands from someone else, it supports the collective based off someone elses ideas of what is best for the collective. What you have to do is be more aggressive. I'm not saying hold her down and beat her, just show her through numerous ways that you are strong, a good provider...okay.

This sucks but I'm gonna tell ya this. A womans instincts draws her to mate, not love. You will here women say they want all kinds of things in a man but at the midbrain, subconcious level every woman wants to insure that her offspring have the best possible genes to pass on. Also this plays away from the "nice guy" and you have to kind of readjust your attitude to overcome your first barrier, that is making her sexually attracted to you. After that you have to show that you are the best choice for helping bare and raise offspring. If a woman is not sexually attracted to you in a certain amount of time, your pretty much fuxord. Not saying you can't make a different impression but it's a lot harder. Take the touch barrier. A simple touch of the arm or the hair while flirting over coffee or drinks is always a good thing. The hard part is reading the other person and seeing if they recpricate. Another good tool is mimicry. Mirror the body positions of the person your talking too, if they are being friendly, if they lean in and expose their face more, do the same. If they sit back and cross thier arms, sit up right with your hands flat on the table infront of you, or folded, what ever is comfortable. A lot of non aurel cues and some aural, like the even tone of a voice. Look...there are a lot of ways to do this, you just have to figure out what works for you. My advice, if your shy, go to church, talk to everybody there, about anything but church, just nicities, and keep it short. Build up the ability to work a convo and move from there. 2, buy a nice set or sets of cloths, not expensive, but something that stands out and looks presentable. Something you would wear to a job interview at low level salary pay, or anything with a tie/vest. But most of all you have to be the alpha, without being a jerk. Never a jerk. Because if she is the kind of girl that thinks a jerk can be changed, and you suddenly start being nice, it's over, she'll move on to the next one. Just show you have the stones to stand for what you believe in and work to make things happen and you'll go far. If you would like anymore ideas or theories specific instances always help. Drop a line.

And Faye, You got all the qualities of the alpha, you just gotta learn to put those forward and then show the nice guy, that always works better.

[Terin]

OK, I'm not really getting the response I was hoping for, everyone has their own experience and ideas on how to attract women, and if I somehow conveyed that I needed advice, I apologize, I DON'T. Like I said, I HAVE the knowledge that I need, I already KNOW what I'm doing, it's just a matter of getting out there and doing it. I'm offering help to others, letting them know that I a, willing to do this with them. GT, I agree with what you said. However, I don't think that mimmicking is good, I think that push/pull flirting is what you should be doing, but I agree with pretty much everything else.

Fawks, UP and I had a HUGE talk about this last night. Here's the skinny. Girls know the game. Most guys don't. The reason that girls know the game is that they've basically been forced into playing it their whole lives. They have to deal with getting hit on all the time, whereas guys don't. Yes there are guys who are naturals, but they are few and far between in comparison to the the AFC/assholes. This is why AFC's NEED to learn the game. But we can't learn it the same as women, because we have much larger hurtles to jump than women. (This is the attraction phase only.) To a girl who's 24, she's been hit on thousands of times, and she has refined an internal filter to help her get rid of guys who have low value. This is why being a nice guy doesn't work. You're a dime a dozen and your value is low, so she won't even give you a shot. Period. No woman is going to give you a "pity date." If you aren't worth it to her, she simply won't hang out with you. In general (as I once again want to express this doesn't apply to everyone, just most) the only girl an AFC will ever get is one with lower self esteem than him, and noone, man OR woman, wants someone like that (crazy power-hungry dominant people excluded). Anyway, back to my original post, if anyone is interested, please post here, email me, drop me an IM, something. Ask yourself this:
"Is what I've been doing worked so far?" If the answer is no, why not give this a shot? If I need to, I'll do this alone. As intimidating as that sounds, I seriously believe I have the will to do it. Please don't come to me afterwards and ask for help, either, as it'll look like you wanted proof first, and didn't trust me. Once I become successfull with talking to strangers, I'll likely not need a "wingman."
-T

[Tobias]

Honestly, I love you sir, but I must say, you need to do this thing on your own. Here's the Tobs Skinny:

I was always the person that relied on friends about girls...going to parties at school to meet them, talking with them. I've even had my chance encounters with women that are attracted to me. But, well, if it takes friends to be comfortable, then you're not comfortable with yourself.

Now, don't get me wrong...I think you're very comfortable with yourself. But not enough. The first time i ever went out with a girl, I did it on my own, with no help and no strings attached. You've heard the story before, im sure...girl i knew comes into the cafe I work at, we're talking, I drop my number, she calls me back, and well the rest is history.

Now, to answer your thread's question: Next time I'm in Atlanta, I'd be more than happy to go with you someplace, be a wingman to you. It'd be fun, get out, have a good time.

Someone once said: Don't go out looking for a girl, go out looking for a good time. The women come with it.

~That is all

[Graillik Tur]

See I disagree. This "filter" you speak of only works if the woman in question knows she is being "hit on". The idea is not to "hit on" women. The idea is to get her to recipticate the interest you have in her. Because the first step in any relationship is attraction, you have to capitolize on the first instance to help foster a more lasting relationship.

Also this is completely wrong:

"Anyway, girls fall for assholes because they have confidence, and they honestly don't care about attracting the woman"

They do care about attracting women, that is why they are so good at it. They exude this cloak of nonchalant bs because they know that is one way of attracting a specific type of woman, i.e. the woman that bases her worth of the opinions of others, or, the woman that likes to dig out other peoples ideas. Also, women find jerks more sexually gratifying in the beginning because they appear more powerful and dangerous. But there again lies a point the womens persona that gives clues to how they are. If you find said woman crying saying "why do all I date is assholes that use me" the answer is they are looking at the wrong cues for what they want. They believe that they can change this walking pool of sexual confidence...and that is what is is, into a caring and loving individual.

Also keep this in mind, my mother told me this and it rings very true most of the time. "Women will use sex to get love, men will you love to get sex."

Trust me, this goes way deeper than anyone really lets on, or realizes. Many people leave this part of thier life upto random feelings and don't ever stop and analyze what it is they are doing. I'm not saying it can't work out in the end, but it tends to be a lot more painful and time consuming.

My advice to anyone that is looking for a mate, not a fling is this. Sit down and decide what it is you want in a mate. Rate these things on a scale of 1 to 3, like must haves, good to have, and bonus. Then list the same things that you could not stand in a mate, and overlook. Me personally, I can't stand lying, I would divorce my wife if the lie was big enough, and we both agreed to that. Also, if she cheated, no theropy, not sessions, just papers.

This will give you a blueprint of what it is you are looking for. The next step is really simple, date. Date everyone that meets the minimum prereqs for further analysis. If it doesn't pan out, cap it and move to the next one.

Also, if you get one of those girls that you genuinely feel is a friend, ask them what it is that they find attractive and what it is about you that is a turn-off, you will be suprised at the answers. Many times it's "I just don't 'feel' that way about you" which translates into, I don't think you would be that great in the sack.

And ofcourse the last horrible truth for any nice guy to get across...every daddy's little girls is somebody's little sex kitten. Women LOVE sex, atleast as much as men do if not more so. Don't be afraid to use that in your understanding of women.

Anymore I can give to the collective pool let me know, I got tons upon tons of information on this. And as it has been said "those that can do, those that can't teach" and being tied down and happy I'm out of the running and down to breeding. I've been put to pasture, and am loving it.

Late.

[Jillybeans]

Hello, well, after the past couple of days of hearing my husband's (Graillik Tur) ranting and raving over this topic, I can't help, but also want to put my two cents in. I understand that the replies that you would like to see is more from the male's perspective, but in all actuality, it maybe good to also have a woman's opinion on this topic. I agree that women like assholes, honestly, I'm a self-proclaimed "asshole-lover," however, I could never love an asshole. Marrying GT has made me realize that I can never, I mean never, change a person, instead it's a matter of adapting to their small little habits, learning to love things about them that you thought you would never care about, and also respecting this person with your utmost respect. With that said, any smart woman would hopefully figure out that if you marry an asshole with the hopes he will change, well, it's sad to say most likely they won't. Also, I'll have to disagree with you that all women "know" the game. I don't think anyone truly knows the game because I think anyone who commits to someone, and not even in a marriage will agree that it's not a matter of knowing the game, but learning about your significant other and conquering the bumps in the road that life so happily conflicts you with. So honestly if you think about it women are just as clueless as you or any of the readers are to this topic. Don't be dismayed though, there are good women out there that aren't looking for a good friend/brother, someone to have sex with, but are truly looking for the right mate and honestly Terin you sound like a great man who will make a wonderful woman happy. Have a great day!