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Outrage from an Online Quiz?! |
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Sperrit
Chosen of Earth
Gender: 
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 |
 Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: |
Alright, I'm going to respond to Tobs since he's the last in the line of those talking about existentialism and society.
I would argue that No Morality is not something created by Religion. Look at the Greeks. They had a moral code without a religion that dictated it. Their religion consisted solely of the practices of appeasing/pleasing the Gods for a more bountiful life, but they still thought that stealing was wrong, killing was bad and rape was terrible.
I would argue that Morality is intrinsic to societies that have evolved to a point of having philosophy. Once you have the time (agriculture vs. hunter/gather) to self-reflect morality becomes obvious. All it takes is the abstract thought of putting one's self in another person's shoes. Once you have Rhetoric and Hypothetic thought Morality makes itself. It comes from Compassion and Sympathy, and those who lack that are Immoral, despite whether or not they follow all of society's "Laws."
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Cheshire
Hippy Kitty
Gender: 
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 |
| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: |
minor input that seems to be way less intellectual than the rest of the responses and really only responds to the OP. We have to start with an assumption or two here. 1. Satan exists. 2. Satan is as evil as it gets. BUT Satan believes in God. So does that make him less evil? |
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Tobias
*explodes*
Age: 38
Gender:
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: |
| Cheshire wrote: | | minor input that seems to be way less intellectual than the rest of the responses and really only responds to the OP. We have to start with an assumption or two here. 1. Satan exists. 2. Satan is as evil as it gets. BUT Satan believes in God. So does that make him less evil? |
hehe...kind of like: "If satan believes in God, and dies, does he go to heaven?"
Thats like the God-rock inequality.
Zinka (In regard to MUCH earlier in your postage)- I still believe that mankind can dictate what is right and what is wrong based on their choices. My belief comes from the fact that i see different ways and lifestyles all the time, as well as different moral reactions in different areas of the country, let alone the world. On a VERY minor level, there is what i observe at the workplace. Since im surrounded by people, i can notice what they all do, how they act, how they manage themselves in the cafe, etc. etc. I can tell you that i see people leave crap on the table and others that clean up after themselves: One group of people believes that it is proper to clean up after onesself in order to relieve the workforce of the cafe (or because they're just plain nice) and the other group has been brought up that I'm a worker, therefore it is my job and duty to clear their space and clean up after them. Either way, i can't change them, since its the way they've been brought up. If you were to ask me, I would say that cleaning up after oneself is the proper and right thing to do, yet there are still countless people, including close friends of mine, who don't clear their place since they feel that the workers are there for a reason, and they're not getting paid to do their work, so why shoudl they.
Now, this is on a very minor level. But lets look at a much more MAJOR level...one that can associate what I'm talking about. Back in US history, we had a situation with a certain group of white Zealots known as The Klu Klux Klan (from here on refered to as KKK). Now, don't look me in teh face and tell me that they were evil and wrong, because this demonstrates my point of view exactly: To the north, you had more sympathetic peopple, who believed in aslightly more equal view of blacks in American society at the time (while that view, though, wasn't very great as opposed to the southern view), yet in the south you had a view that blacks were slaves, and having them out and about pretty much made them evil, "Black as their skin." Now, No one condones genocide, but at that point in American society, blacks were declared Evil by KKK members in association with God as a secret society. A great portion of the American South found it morally right to not only treat Blacks like poo, but even found it "right" and told themselves it was "right" to linch them, hanging them and burnning crosses in their yards, as well as ruining their lives as easily as they wake up in the morning.
Yet another example exists on a major scale...while some call it brainwashing, i find it to be supporting my example: Nazi Germany. There, Adolf Hitler convinced a whole country that people other than White, anglo-christian males and females who had blonde hair and blue eyes were not perfect, and therefore inferior to the Germans. As well, he convinced this society that Blacks, Gays, handicapped people, and especially Jews were among the worst, and that they were to be executed, or as he put it, "cleansed" from society. One man changed a country's views of right and wrong and made it "right" to kill. While we say its brainwashing, its only because the rest of the world wasn't convinced. If the rest of the world WERE convinced (and therefore Germany and the axis somehow won WWII), then it wouldn't be brainwashing, but the bringing of an true ideal and moral to the world.
Now, not that i condone that Nazi Germany was good, but these are examples. If someone strong enough is able to control a society long enough into one idea, then they are able to change the moral system. Even biblically, this is done in the Exodus, as Moses is forced to march for 40 years thorugh the desert for the sake of removing the older, inappropriate generation and allow the younger, more-impressionable-to-God generation to take its place. As the older generation grew up with their own ideals that were swayed by Moses, the younger generation are born into this moral system, and have been exposed to it from that point. While some ideals may be similar, others are different. But Moses was able to impressionate the younger generation long enough and run the length of the older generation to its mortal coil, making the younger generation the generation of God, who topple the walls of Jericho and take the holy lands.
Sperrit - You're absolutely right, IMO, as philosophy develops from a society after it maintains a moral code for a long enough time. It also develops longer and stronger when many societies believe in similar ideals. What I don't believe is that the lack of compassion and Sympathy make something Immoral...without these, thigns are not Human, but more animalistic. Animals act on instinct, and acts of compassion or sympathy are done through propagation of the self, IE: Fox A and Fox B (Fox A's cub) gets attacked by a bear. Fox A will protect its cub, in order to allow its blood to continue on thorugh its child. Humans have compassion and sympathy because of the ability of empathy, or the ability to take on another's feelings through some sort of relation. This comes from our general makeup as a human being: Since we have rational thought, we can create these feelings, give them shape, and extend them to others.
Anywho, now that I've made myself look like a heartless creature, anyone want some cake? Cause I'm gonna take a break from typing for a bit.
*explodes* |
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Al the DLOE
Director of Unpleasent Facts Dept.
Age: 43
Gender:
Joined: 05 Dec 2006 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: |
You Are 80% Evil
You are very evil. And you're too evil to care.
Those who love you probably also fear you. A lot.
How Evil Are You?
http://www.blogthings.com/howevilareyouquiz/
well i think we all guessed this |
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"There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel."
-Robert Frost
"What luck for rulers that men do not think."
-Adolf Hitler
Get off a shot FAST, this upsets him long enough to let you make your
second shot perfect. - Robert A Heinlein.
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Zinka
Otaku Knight
Gender:
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: |
Tobs...I have to say, I think you're wrong^.^
I mean, you mention these two groups that did/do a lot of damage. And you say if they had been powerful enough to continue then they would have simply created a new moral code for the world or whoever else they managed to convince. But what I think you might not realize (and maybe this is way too optimistic of me) if that these groups didn't take over the world or get much furthur than their own region/country. To me, this shows that while humans and society are powerful and can influence thought and morality, there is a basic morality that is natural to humans which prevents this sort of twisted morality from taking complete hold. Otherwise why couldn't hitler have convinced more countries...I mean, I know it can be argued down, and I definatly wouldn't be able to argue against it any furthur. But in my mind, human's social morality is affected by a common morality natural to us all which can be different on smaller scales and range within countries and communities and societies but is essentially based off of this feeling or right and wrong.
I won't approach the bible stuff since I think thats a matter of interpretation.^.^
| Quote: | What I don't believe is that the lack of compassion and Sympathy make something Immoral...without these, thigns are not Human, but more animalistic. Animals act on instinct, and acts of compassion or sympathy are done through propagation of the self, IE: Fox A and Fox B (Fox A's cub) gets attacked by a bear. Fox A will protect its cub, in order to allow its blood to continue on thorugh its child. Humans have compassion and sympathy because of the ability of empathy, or the ability to take on another's feelings through some sort of relation. This comes from our general makeup as a human being: Since we have rational thought, we can create these feelings, give them shape, and extend them to others.
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Now, Im a little confused about what you're saying here...
I think you're saying humans have empathy and saying that's a natural part of human makeup. And that rational thought developes those feelings into compassion and sympathy?
I guess if what I want to say is that I think empathy implies morality. The ability to consider other's feelings would be useless unless you understood how to treat those feelings and I think they can only be understood through the idea of right and wrong...or some sort of morality....
ho gosh I'm so bad at this stuff^.^
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"I know that some people say the idea of a Law of Nature or decent behavious known to all men is unsound, because different civilizations and different ages have had quite different moralities. But they havn't. They have only had slightly different moralities. Just think what a quite different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud for double-crossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might as well try to imagine a country where two and two made five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to-whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or every one. But they have always agreed that you oughtn't to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you mustn't simply have any woman you liked."
here's a long quote from CS Lewis which I feel may better illustrate what I would argue if I could actually use words(by the way, when he refers to the law of nature he's reffering to an idea of human nature that is what some humans choose or choose not to follow)...I don;t know if that helps or not...but I only wish I could speak as well as him^.^ |
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Tobias
*explodes*
Age: 38
Gender:
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
hehe...i get what you're saying Zinka. honestly, Hitler was up against a LOT of people who didn't like the way he thought. But a big mistake in his tactics was that he thought he could march into Russia. That pretty much sealed his fate.
Also, philosophy has pretty much dictated that the moral code in life is what we see today: holding the door open to people, saying please and thank you, etc. I honestly couldn't imagine a world that is the complete (and i mean COMPLETE) opposite of what we live in today.
What I'm saying is that people, if they can keep a moral ideal for a long enough time into a new generation, they can practically create their own moral code.
| zinka wrote: | | I guess if what I want to say is that I think empathy implies morality. The ability to consider other's feelings would be useless unless you understood how to treat those feelings and I think they can only be understood through the idea of right and wrong...or some sort of morality.... |
I get ya. It's kind of confusing what i said, but to pretty much sum it up: Rational thought is a key piece in what makes us human, and empathy is a piece of that. Because of this, empathy isn't what necessarily makes us Immoral or Moral, but rather Human or Inhuman. After we leap that hurdle, then we are int he world of moral and immoral.
And don't get me wrong, i think just like the next guy that morality is what we see today. In fact, im pretty sure that it'll never change in a million years. But what i'm saying (in relation to the topic as a whole) is that evil is something that is percieved by man, not by God. God is used as a medium to transfer this idea of evil to a large (very large) spectrum, wherein we see it one-hundred fold. the idea of having a greater force giving us laws makes us feel good...as humans, we appreciate being led, much like sheep.
Anywho, i've made myself look more heartless...please forgive me, i love people  |
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Zinka
Otaku Knight
Gender:
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 |
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
| Tobias wrote: |
Anywho, i've made myself look more heartless...please forgive me, i love people |
I don't think your heartless^.^
okay...I see what your saying...I may not agree with it 100% but I can see it. |
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Tobias
*explodes*
Age: 38
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Joined: 17 Jan 2003 |
| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: |
w00t...then my job is done
And if you agreed with it, i would have felt liek a Jehova's witness Sorry to anyone if that first post seemed a bit forceful. |
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I am not afraid to die today
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