His Dark Materials- Phillip Pullman * Warning: SPOILERS! *

[Shandriz]

Seriously, if the books that I am right now reading did not belong to someone else, I'd probably be chucking them out the window.

I like his writing style, however, I -don't- like just about anything else.

Plot/Purpose-- I had been told, and a lot of the writing sort've confirms it's supposed to be-- that this is supposed to support atheism. It does a -horrible- job of it, if so, because none of the characters in the book are atheists. They all believe in some sort of deity, it's just whether or not they want to -destroy- said deity that's up in the air.

I'm not a religious person at all-- I claim Christianity only because it's easier than trying to explain my actual religious inclinations-- but I find this book horribly offensive mostly because of the previous stupidity of plot/purpose, but also because even if this -does- somehow make more sense between the second and third books (I haven't finished the third yet) he's still using tactics that the atheists usually get pissed off with the Christians for using in Atheist-bashing novels. And I usually -love- books/movies that poke fun at Christianity etc. They just use childish tactics to support their cause, rather than valid arguments.

That is, grouping -all- Christians together and claiming that they're all stupid cows and that only people who want to have whatever deity exists destroyed are intelligent etc etc.

While I'll agree that it -seems- as though it's primarily trying to attack Catholicism, it really could easily apply to any theistic religions out there-- including the Wicca, because the witches are apparently just as stupid as the rest of us.

Not only do they want to destroy the theistic deity, but they also have absolutely no good reason for wanting to do so. They claim it's because evil's been done in (his) name, but...er...that has nothing to do with the deity itself and everything to do with...uh...people? Plus, they want to recreate the situation that nearly everyone who believes in Biblical mythology would agree was the -reason- all that evil stuff came to exist-- the fall of Adam and Eve. Um? Logic?


Putting all of this stuff aside and assuming the third book does have some sort of magical deus ex machina moment where everything suddenly makes sense...I still don't like the books for what they've done to the characters.

In the first book, Lyra is fun and kickass and one tough little chickie. She doesn't let -anyone- tell her what to do except for the compass, even when things aren't going exactly as she wants them to, and even recognizing that some of this stuff is her fault. She just goes "Okay, well, then, lets fix this!" and proceeds to fix it all herself with pure determination (and a lot of luck).

I -hate- that they randomly killed Roger at the end of the book. The -only- purpose this serves is to ensure that later on, in the second book, she turns into this wimpy, pansy, "Yes Will, whatever you say" typical female lead, because she's afraid of something like that happening again.

And -then- they decide to kill the only character I had -any- sympathy left for, Lee Scoresby, because it's convenient and hey, -somebody- has to die, right? Even Will's losing cool points, though I can't quite place my finger on why.

I don't know. The whole series is just pissing me off left and write. Like I said, I like his writing style, and I like some of the themes, but I'd like them a lot better if they had more logic to them and if they'd stop killing off characters I like randomly. It's like the seventh book of Harry Potter all over again, only with slightly less emotional investment.

[Akanari]

First of all, you may want to mention in the thread title that this contains spoilers. Major spoilers.

What Pullman seems to be arguing in these books is more a type of pantheism than anything else. I don't think the terms atheist and theist are applicable in these books. They know there is a god, we, the reader, know there is a god. It's like denying that the Fox Theater is in downtown Atlanta. The Authority, as they call him (as opposed to the “him and her” of Wicca), has falsely taken the place of religious power in these universes, posing as the Creator when he himself was, in fact, created by Dust. The Authority is a fascist ruler (especially in the Old Testament) and now is being superseded by his right-hand man, Megatron, who is arguably worse than the Authority. Yes, he is arguing against Theism, more in the sense that it is incredibly strange and unfair to beings under the "divine ruler."

I'm not sure what tactics you're talking about that Pullman uses to defend Atheism. Sure, he argues against following blindly, but not against the existence of a deity. A sentient and Theistic deity, sure, but not a deity in the most general sense of the word. Also, some of the most intelligent characters in the book are those sided with the Magisterium (at least at first).

Now, the whole fall of man thing. The Bible and the Magisterium in these books say evil (original sin, more precisely) was created with the temptation of Eve. What people like Lord Asriel are fighting for is that this fall of man has been misunderstood and in actuality means man recognizing its own existence, knowledge, and “nakedness.” This is better explained in the Amber Spyglass.

It may help your understanding of the events of the series if you finish it, so I'm going to refrain from further arguing against your rant against the book.

Harry Potter is no comparison to Pullman, I think. It's like Saturday morning cartoons put next to Spielberg. Perhaps I'm being harsh. :]

[Daijaga]

Dammit - They killed Lee?!? Edited to include spoilers preface. -_-

[Robb]

[Shandriz]

....erm..if you haven't figured out there's spoilers for the book by the time I got to Lee's death, I think you weren't really reading it. xD ^_-

Eh, I'm getting some of that in the third book since I started it, but really, it's still such a load of crap what they did to Lyra, and the third book really isn't impressing me anymore than the first two as far as logic goes. We'll see, I suppose, but I still hold to my rant for the first two books. Especially since I prefer my series to be able to stand on their own and not be -completely- dependent on further books to be decent reads. Each of the HP books were fine on their own (except book 7, which sucked anyways) but better together. These books so far suck on their own, but get slightly better once you've finished the entire series. Um. No?

I'm only making it through all three out of pure determination because I saw the movie and I want to see if Pullman manages to make it decent by the end of the third one. I can't see why anyone else would continue reading them. It's like drinking beer-- if you have to work at it to like it, what's the point?

[Akanari]

I hated the movie.

The only thing separating these books, any books in a series really, are two covers. If you'd be happier combining them into one big book, go ahead, and one of the most circulated versions of His Dark Materials now has all three books in one volume. Would that make you happy?

With the drinking beer thing, beer is a matter of personal taste. I know people who drink non alcoholic beer just because they like the taste, regardless of the lack of "pleasant" effects. Some people, like myself, really like His Dark Materials for what it is. The ultimate battle of good and evil has been turned onto its head; religion is no longer infallible. I've read the series multiple times ever since it became available in the United States. It had been five years since I read it a few weeks ago, and I still couldn't put it down while I plowed through it.

How do you explain the multitude of awards and the large fan base these books got before the movie? I also don't think it should be compared to Harry Potter, as I may have said before. Harry Potter has few, if no, new ideas. Yes, that is my opinion, but I consider it (perhaps with a little too much conviction) a well informed one.

Also, I still don't understand at all what you're saying about Lyra. Perhaps it's just personal, but I thought character development was a good thing?

[Daijaga]

I was elated to hear they were croaking Roger (per Faye) - when I saw him hook up with Lyra at the end of the first movie I just knew the naggy little snit was going to hold her back and keep her from being her catty, witty self. Shame to hear she gets all "yes ma'am" in the second book :/

[Faye]

I am going to refrain from making a full comment since I still have about 1/3rd of Amber spyglass left to read. I do hope that anyone wanting to read the books wont let Shandriz's comments deter you from doing so, because the books are amazing. I was told going into this series that it was a lot like Harry potter, having read most of it now, I couldnt agree more with akanari's statement

[Silver Adept]

I always considered Pullman to be against institutional faiths, like the one the Magesterium represents, and that Lyra, Will, and Mary all work against. Any faith that gets mired in dogma and starts thinking it knows best for everyone is the kind of faith Pullman's against. I don't know if he'd be a bit more lenient on faiths that manage to avoid that, but such faiths probably aren't displaying themselves ostentatiously and so they wouldn't get noticed.

[Shandriz]

1) I never said they should all be combined into one book. Quite the opposite-- I said each book should be able to be enjoyed by itself.

2) Lyra's character is not developed, it is -destroyed- like every other woman/girl who falls in love, she turns from a spunky, tenacious, independent little girl into a wimpy, obedient, pansy little thing who's willing to do everything Will tells her to do. This is Not Cool and really annoying, because I'm tired of seeing this happen to every cool female character created.

3) Saying that something is "critically acclaimed" to me is about the same as saying "someone who's never read the book said..." because the critics and I -very- rarely agree on anything.


Anyways, I'm going to stop arguing, because there really doesn't seem to be much point in it. Suffice it to say I still don't like the series, though I'm still hoping (really, I am) that somehow the third book manages a miracle and suddenly makes the series -not- suck. From what I've got so far, though, it fails.